Caste Systems
Lemuel~~~ ~looking to the water clock~
Well, I guess I might as well get the show on the road...
The forum is now started. Same rules as always...
I believe we had a carry-over topic or two. We were discussing castes last week, let's start with that.
Kyoto~~~ What was the actual topic about?
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ *listening to her Master as He starts the forum with the topics of Castes from last week's discussion*
Lemuel~~~ ~S~ Well, if I remember correctly, we were discussing ways to make the forums more interesting and it was suggested that people could do presentations on the different castes. That started a general discussion of castes on Gor...
Kyoto~~~ *nodding*
Lemuel~~~ One question from last week was how people chose the caste they use online...
Kayla~~~ Well I was alittle taken aback with the way the subject ran... I have no complaints on the way the Forums are now... They tend to get alittle passionate sometimes but when people have strong emotional ties that is to be expected.
I think maybe this could be done on another night maybe to bring more people in on different days
Kyoto~~~ Well, after reading through the books, I was fascinated by not only the combat aspect but the rich tradition implied by the codes...
Kyoto~~~ *Glancing at Kayla curiously*
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding at Kayla's words~
Aye, I was a little surprised that there would be complaints about the forum being *too* quiet as well. ~G~
But it wouldn't hurt to have topics posted ahead of time so people would have a chance to think about them...
Kayla~~~ Well mostly the Forums have been what was happening that people questioned at the time....
Kyoto~~~ *chuckling*
I've been very absorbed by r/t issues lately, so I have no idea what the latest goings on are.
Lemuel~~~ ~nods again~ And there's nothing wrong with that...but I remeber a few forums where we discussed specific books, had *gues* lecturers, etc. and I think that it would be good to try those things again. The hard part is getting volunteers......
Elektra~~~ Me neither.
Mandi~~~ Lemuel what You run into in getting "volunteers" for specific presentations is that it seems harder to be on the spot to prepare well for a presentation, and Some actually have a fear of public speaking that prevents Them from doing that, even if They can converse just fine in here.
Kayla~~~ I agree Lemuel... Ideas are the easy part and getting people here and to participate is the biggie *S*
Mandi~~~ It would seem that confidence in speaking to a subject would be enhanced by some advance notice and preparation, but Many will give an off-the-cuff response Who would not organize and prepare.
Elektra~~~ *Listens quietly*
Lemuel~~~ ~smiles~ I think it's more a *fear of commitment* Mandi.
Kyoto~~~ My penny did an excellent presentation for the slaves on clothing and culture... trouble is not getting her started though, it's getting her to hush... I've found that a well placed gag helps.
Deirdre~~~ *chuckling at Kyoto*
Kuurus~~~ I agree Lemuel
Mandi~~~ ~smiling at Him.~
Aye. But I did not want to use a term with other connotations, Captain.
Lemuel~~~ ~chuckling~
Mandi~~~ So, it's a good idea if there are some actual Vict... Participants?
Elektra~~~ *Grins*
Elektra~~~ *LOL @ Mandi's last statement*
Lemuel~~~ ~laughs~ Yes, it certainly helps if there are people who are willing to *put up* as it were...
Mandi~~~ **watching the stampede**
Elektra~~~ *LOL*
Lemuel~~~ If anyone has ideas on things to talk about during forums, they shouldn't be afraid to take the lead and get things rolling. Many times, nothing will happen if people don't show a little initiative. ~S~
Kayla~~~ And I am sure that people think that We on the Council love to hear Ourselves talk but We would rather not all the time ~grins~
Mandi~~~ Is there Anyone qualified to speak on Scribes?
Lemuel~~~ ~chuckles at Kayla's words~ Too true.
I remember when I first started here I had lots of ideas and suggestions for how to *liven things up*......Rollo told Me to go ahead and do it. ~G~
Lemuel~~~ ~S~ I don't think we have any present, but I have a couple of quotes up My sleeve...no page numbers unfortunately.
Mandi~~~ I am studying with a Scribe.
Lemuel~~~ ~S~ I know that they are one of the five High Castes of Gor. Their color is blue. Like most castes, they have several sub-castes or specializations within the caste.
Many castes, incidentally, have branches and divisions. Lawyers and Scholars, for example, and Record Keepers, Teachers, Clerks, Historians and Accountants are all Scribes. (Assassin of Gor)
Elektra~~~ *Hopeful expression* Any arms dealers?
Lemuel~~~ ~chuckles~ Not amongst Scribes, Elektra. Arms dealers would either be Merchants or (more likely) Metal Workers.
Kayla~~~ ~noting the slave entry and turning back to listen to the Forum~
fallen~angel{Stan}~~~ ~*listening*~
Errand Knight~~~ arms dealers would in My opinion most likely be Merchants ..for the definition of the caste relates to commerce and trade something that other castews usually dont do ..for example as a Physician I am rarely paid for My services
Mandi~~~ Arms Dealers might very well employ some Scribes. Arms Dealers would be of the Gold Caste (Merchants).
Kayla~~~ what other sub catorgories are there of other Castes?... IS there any for the Warrior Caste?
Mandi~~~ There are some Mercenaries, but would that be a Sub-Caste?
Lemuel~~~ ~shrugs~ I'm sure there are Merchants that would specialize in arms, but I'm sure that there are Metal Workers that sell swords, spears, etc. as well. Bakers, sell their own goods, there's no reason to think it should be otherwise for the other castes...
Kyoto~~~ I think a Warrior is a Warrior... unless you consider a Tarnsman to be a sub caste.
Elektra~~~ *Wide Toothy Grin because I think I've finally found an occupation*
Kayla~~~ I would have to agree Kyoto ~smiles~
Mandi~~~ I could rent You a very convenient location, Lady.
Lemuel~~~ ~nods to Kyoto~ There would be certain specialized functions within the Warrior Caste as well, IMO. Tarnsmen, Riders of the High Tharlarion, etc. - though probably not as much as in other castes.
Elektra~~~ *LOL* Actually, I want to live on a boat, custom-designed for me by Tersites, along the lines of a Chinese Junk. *wink*
fallen~angel{Stan}~~~ The books do not explicitly state that there are any subcastes to the Warrior Caste but it seems reasonable that some do exist such as Tarnsmen and Tharlarion Cavalrymen. It can be difficult at times to differentiate between what would be considered an actual subcaste and what would simply be considered a different position. A City Guardsman may simply be a possible position and not an actual subcaste. It generally seems that subcastes possess certain skills that others may not. Being a City Guardsman does not really take special skills but obviously a Tarnsman would
Errand Knight~~~ aside from Tarnsmen, the Tharlarion Cavalery are also a subcaste of Warrior
Lemuel~~~ ~nods at fa', smiling~ Exactly. It mentions only on a couple occasions in the books that there are sub-castes and specializations within the various castes. The quote I posted earlier from "Assassin" is one example, there is another in "Tribesmen".
The carders and the dyers, incidentally, are subcastes separate from the weavers. All are subcastes of the rug makers, which, itself, interestingly, perhaps surprisingly, is accounted generally as a subcaste of the cloth workers. Rug makers themselves, however, usually regard themselves, in their various subcastes, as being independent of the cloth workers. A rug maker would not care to be confused with a maker of kaftans, turbans or djellabas. (Tribesmen of Gor)
Lemuel~~~ There is also a quote in "Beasts" pertaining to specialization within the Physicians Caste...
On a rounded wooden block a naked slave girl knelt, her wrists braceleted behind her. Her head was back. A fellow in a green tunic, doubtless one of the caste of physicians, was cleaning her teeth.
As a sidelight on the Gorean world it might be noted, in passing, that this sort of fellow, as he was working on a slave, who is an animal, would also be expected to be an expert in matters pertaining to the needs of other animals, as well, for example, bosk, kaiila, verr, tarsks, and such. His specialty within the caste of physicians would be what those of Earth would be likely to consider veterinary medicine. The caste of physicians is a large, complex caste, and deals with a number of specialties which have to do with medicine and health. For example, individuals those of Earth might consider doctors, nurses, medical technicians, nutritionists, surgeons, medical researchers, pharmacists, physicians' assistants, dentists, veterinarians, and so on, would all be physicians, or "of the caste of physicians," on Gor. (Beasts of Gor)
Lemuel~~~ And while there's no specific mention of this in the books, it seems likely that there would be Architects, Civil Engineers, Mechanical and Electrical Engineers within the Builders Caste...
Errand Knight~~~ it does raise the interesting question though about where the caste ends and begins ..something that Norman is not in My view clear on. For My caste for example beyond those mentioned in Lemuels quote there are a range of healers on gor. Some regard themselves as of the Caste of Physician and doubtless are, others in My view are not eg the healers one finds amongst the nomads for example
Lemuel~~~ Any more questions or other comments of Gorean castes?
Kayla~~~ I frankly think the distintion is only for location.... and more than that is a cyber one line ism
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ *listening to all the comments on castes and sub-caste.. *
Lemuel~~~ ~nods at E.K.~ It does say in the books that the healers of the Wagon Peoples are not a caste, but I can see your point. There's bound to be some overlap between various castes.
Lemuel~~~ ~looks about~ Should we continue with the discussion on castes or is there another topic? I do have some notes on other aspects of caste...~grins~
fallen~angel{Stan}~~~ In some of the more barbaric areas of Gor, such as the Barrens, the Plains of Turia and the jungles near Schendi, the Caste does not exist. In those areas, their medicine is much more primitive. They do not possess medical machines or advanced drugs. They rely more heavily on natural cures, using herbs and plants. Their healers would be more like herbalists
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding to fa'~
Good point, girl. ~S~
fallen~angel{Stan}~~~ so Master Errand Knight, perhaps 'healers' as such are more like naturopaths/herbalists rather than physicians
Errand Knight~~~
"In rare cases, one might have been permitted by the Council of High Castes to raise caste. None of course would accept a lower caste, and there were lower castes, the caste of Peasants for example, the most basic Caste of all Gor."
Outlaw of Gor, pg. 27
Correction of Tavern Slaves
Lemuel~~~ ~listening for any further comments~
Alright if there's nothing more on the castes topic I do have another topic...
fallen~angel{Stan}~~~ ~*listening for the next topic and smiling a silent greeting to Master Rok*~
Lemuel~~~ O.K. - next topic: "What is the protocol for correcting tavern slaves. Does even a minor correction require a Captain's approval?"
Kayla~~~ ~Listening to the next topic with intrest~
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ *listening for the next topic.. *
Rok~~~ I would not think that a minor correction would require approval. Of course, it would be prudent to make One of the Captains aware of such.
Errand Knight~~~ listening for discussion of the next topic
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ *offering*
from the slave manual:
8) Punishment
(an update due to forum notes on October 01, 2001)
Gorean Shores will not tolerate slaves who do not understand their position in Gorean society.
a * guide line * from the Council... slaves, if found displeasing, could be cuffed, or lightly kicked aside, or even have their hair grabbed and pulled to make it shown that they have been found LESS than acceptable.... but NOT whipped or damaged permantly in any way....
A Master as well, may tie you to a post to await punishment. If a Master persists in wanting to whip a GS slave, you may leave without permission. BUT keep a c & p of the incident and report any situation of a Master wanting to whip a GS slave to the Council of Captains at goreanshores@hotmail.com.
This does not mean you will not be whipped, the Captains may decide you deserve the whipping anyway.
Kayla~~~ Unless the slave thinks there is some reason that the Free was high handed or acted without cause I don't see why? But saying that the request by a slave to look into a matter should be made with respect.
Kayla~~~ ~nodding at the post of the first girl~
Errand Knight~~~ depends I would think on what meant by correction ...to point out a fault to a GS slave should be acceptable in all cases and if of no real consequence is simply a matter of learning. A major matter or one requiring some punishment would be a different matter I would think
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding as My girl posts the info from the Home pages~
Any Free may correct a Tavern slave. It would, however, be a good idea for them to keep a c&p of the incident and send it to the Council.
Rok~~~ *nods*
Errand Knight~~~ jasma: I understand the issue of punishment though the issue was one of correction and not all correction leads to punishment by definition
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding at the Physician's words~
Aye, and if a girl forgets to beg entry, or something of that nature I would expect any Patron to correct the girl.
Rok~~~ aye, word of corrections, or as said, cuffing on slightly, is not the same thing as whipping a girl.
Mandi~~~ I am informed that as a pledged Free, I am not to post My displeasure at a tavern slut who is displeasing and then leaves without permission when My intent was a verbal correction, not a whipping.
fallen~angel{Stan}~~~ *listening*
Errand Knight~~~ a practical example: I ask a slave to serve Me paga. without seaking further instruction the slave serves Me warm paga or sul paga or paga from a tankard rther than a wooden bowl. what do I do?
Kayla~~~ LOL... but no one would question a verbal correction. it is when a girl is punished that can and do complain ~smiles~
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ *looking up*
with respect.. it seems to jaz that it would stand to reason that the slave would c&p the incident to the Council, being the slaves' Owners.. in the books when slaves had been found displeasing and punished they were, in many instances, unsure if it was in all, they were told to tell their owners of them being displeasing and if they had been punished for it, as well..
*eyes glancing to her Master, hoping she's remembered that correctly.. *
fallen~angel{Stan}~~~ how is one to learn if not correcterd? immediate correction, ,n this ones opinion, should be given, just like an animal. if a slave's Master is not here, any Free should be able to correct a slave.
Mandi~~~ Yet I get reprimanded on the public board for attempting to get an opportunity to verbally correct the girl for two instances of being displeasing?
Lemuel~~~ ~shaking My head~ No, I do not think that is correct, Mandi. Any Free may tell a slave whaen she has been displeasing. It is only the level of punishment for that lapse that is restricted.
Mandi~~~ I request a public retraction on the Board. I can submit a c&p to the Captains if that is necessary, but I would also request that the requirement of a c&p be posted on the Home Page as well.
fallen~angel{Stan}~~~ Master Errand Knight, if it was fa serving You, she would ask You first, what kind of paga You wanted. However, if a slave got You the wrong paga, this one would expect to be given the page back and asked to serve correctly - if she thinks about it she will see her error was to inquire as to what kind Master wanted. for example, Mistress Kayla asks for blackwine, fa does Not assume Mistress wants first slave, she would ask first. a slave should be corrected, corrected on serves, corrected on postions, on speach. a slave is to be found pleasing.
Kayla~~~ I think posting on the boards is another matter... Atleast I thought we were talking at the time... if a girl leaves and compounds the act of displeasing a Free Person I would certainly take it to the Owner. Posting on the boards only enflames a matter and pulls it out of poportion...
Mandi~~~ That should be clarified on the Home page, then, Consultant.
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ *listening to Master Knight's words*..
if You've asked a girl to serve paga, most have been instructed that if a Free don't request *warm* or *cold* or *room temp*.. she's to serve it warm.. but it's to be served in a tri footed bowl.. and a girl shouldn't serve sul-paga without being told to do so.. if it's not served how You would wish.. correct the slave and have her bring You what You wished for.. *gazing to Master Knight*..
Lemuel~~~ ~looks to Mandi~ I thought it would be obvious that any problem with a slave (Tavern or otherwise) should always be brought *directly* to the attention of the Owner(s)...
Errand Knight~~~ fallen: I agree with that. but I would say that slave practice often falls short of that. Its no biggie but I would expect that if a girl did not seek clarification then I should instruct her for her learning
Kayla~~~ Well a matter then to submit for debate to the Council Mandi *S* They take all such suggestions under advisement.
and since the slave has been sold and the matter happened well over 4 hands ago seems like a lost moment
fallen~angel{Stan}~~~ Yes Master Errand Knight, fa would expect You to correct her had she gotten Your order wrong ~*smile*~
fallen~angel{Stan}~~~ this one believes in immediate correction and immediate punishment, that way it stays fresh in a girls mind.
Kayla~~~ And so You should Errand... I would not accept such a poor service and neither should any Free... should she be beaten?... well maybe if the matter was repeated many times but then most would correct quickly with a word or two ~softl smiles~
Lemuel~~~ O.K. - times run out, so this forum is closed.