Present:
Thadron
Ramses
Dak
Hunter
Lita
shimmer
shuri
shareen
aura
OK,I have a topic, I will open the Forum, same rules, keep greetings and chit chat to wispersfor the benefit of the scribe , here goes ...
Today's Topic
Honor and Respect
Quotes For This Week
"Honor," I said, "has many voices, and many songs."
He looked down at me, startled, "That is a saying of warriors," he said. "It is from the codes. It is a long time since I have heard it. I had almost forgotten it. Where did you, a slave, hear it?"
"In Treve," I said.
"A den of thieves!" he said.
I did not respond. Who knows within what houses may be heard the voices of honor? Who knows within what walls may be heard her songs?" - (Witness of Gor, p.711)
"Once a warrior without a helmet flew near, drunk, and challenged me for the perch, a wild tarnsman of low rank, spoiling for a fight. If I had yielded the perch, it would have aroused suspicion immediately, for on Gor the only honorable reply to a challenge is to accept it promptly." - Tarnsman of Gor, pg. 78
"I'm not concerned with your liking or disliking me... All I ask is that you respect me as a human being." - Jackie Robinson
"I once asked a Gorean hunter whom I had met in Ar why the larl was hunted at all. I have never forgotten his reply. "Because it is beautiful," he said, " and dangerous, and because we are Goreans." - Priest Kings of Gor, page 20
"The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life." - Richard Bach
Questions
1) In what ways can we show each other respect while we roleplay?
2) How can we bring more respect to our own realm of Gor?
3) What was a time when you felt your character was truly honored during play?
4) Explain how it is possible to be a "bad guy" (antagonist) and still be honorable.
Ramses, Captain of GS 19:40:08 pm CDT
hmmmm, all interesting questions
Ramses, Captain of GS 19:42:19 pm CDT
I thnk repsect starts by taking the other person's character seriously ... understanding who they are and what motivates them ...what caste are they ... and utilizing all that in your roleplay
shuri {ShadowHawk} 19:44:48 pm CDT
"I'm not concerned with your liking or disliking me... All I ask is that you respect me as a human being." - Jackie Robinson
This one finds this quote interesting as she has always tried to be respectful to people IC and OOC whether she liked them or not. Not everyone is going to like everyone else or always approve or agree with the way they run their life or roleplay. Doesn't mean you have to be rude and disrespectful to them.
Granted, there are times when someone is so out of control it might be necessary, but in general it is not necessary.
Ramses, Captain of GS 19:46:08 pm CDT
*nodding to shuri*
Lita, Physician 19:47:21 pm CDT
I think, too, We need to remember that Gorean ideas of honor did not always coincide with Earth ideas of honor. For example, it is not dishonorable on Gor to steal another man's slave. The Owner has a length of time to reclaim her. If He did not, she belonged to the One Who stole her. If You killed Another's slave, You had only to pay her Owner the two coppers her dead body was worth. Port Kar even had a Caste of thieves. Which apparently had no effect on the punishments given if they were caught.
Dak 19:47:48 pm CDT
I try to always be respectful, even when disagreeing, it usually depends on the other person, if I maintain My decorum !
Ramses, Captain of GS 19:50:40 pm CDT
*nodding to Dak,
that is the key
shuri {ShadowHawk} 19:51:51 pm CDT
2) How can we bring more respect to our own realm of Gor?
Bringing a greater understand of Gor and what it entails to those who are less knowledgeable about it helps a great deal.
There are many who do not understand Gor and make assumptions about it without really knowing what it is. Book club night, slave classes, and forums are all great to bridge that gap. Being respectful and helping those that are new to Gor helps as well.
Ramses, Captain of GS 19:53:00 pm CDT
*nodding*
it is interesting that you bring up those specific activities as showing respect, shuri
I agree completely
shuri {ShadowHawk} 19:53:07 pm CDT
*grins looking around wondering if her sisters have lost their tongue this eve.*
Lita, Physician 19:54:07 pm CDT
And what are We to do, shuri, with Those Who THINK They know, and have no interest in learning, but wish to roleplay according to Their ideas?
Dak 19:54:35 pm CDT
most outside of Gor think it is more cruel than DM, they have no understanding Gor has a decorum and the site has rules of behavior !
Lita, Physician 19:55:33 pm CDT
T Just, Gor is not Fair. Gor Just Is."
Lita, Physician 19:56:08 pm CDT
*kicking at the hungry uyrts trying to eat Her post* Gor is not Just, etc.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 19:57:11 pm CDT
*Smiles to Mistress Lita* Well this one would say to that......it is roleplay after all, so unless it is something that is completely disruptive to others roleplay, how much of a difference does it really make?
Is it more important to be right all the time and everything played exactly by the books? Or is it more important to have rich and varied roleplay environment where everyone is having fun?
Lita, Physician 19:58:13 pm CDT
Agreed, Dak. Another difference, as far as I can tell from what little I know of DM is that DM is about the subs/slaves, who have rights and can set limits and so on, and Gor is about the Free and Their wishes, and the slaves have no rights and cannot set limits, and so on..
Dak 19:58:53 pm CDT
do you mean a rich and varied roleplay, like in the DM?
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:00:07 pm CDT
*nods to Master Dak* Many years ago, at another site, this knew very little of Gor, and was under that impression that anyone who was a Master was abusive and anyone who submit to that as a slave had serious issues. she did not know that it came from John Norman's books. she thought it was a more extreme part of D/s. So not everyone makes an informed decision about not liking Gor. *laughs* And those who like to maintain that, to them, Gor is not roleplay, often don't help the matter.
shareen[Rm] 20:00:31 pm CDT
Master Dak, this one can agree with that. Before she began to understand Gor she thought it was well.. extreme. Then she started talking to those who had been in it for a while and understood it and T/they helped her to realize it is not too extreme.. as Mistress Lita says.. it just is.
Lita, Physician 20:00:50 pm CDT
It does make a difference, shuri. And if what is done is not by the books, it is usually against the spirit and atmosphere of the Gor created by the Author. The world We are trying to re-create in role-play,
Hunter{aura} 20:01:27 pm CDT
as I see it....the impasse will always exist...between chatters as humans..men and women...and the characters of roleplay... some lean more to the human side..others lean to the roleplay as if it were more real than in actually is..its a conundrum...*S*
Dak 20:02:43 pm CDT
I am aware of that also, shuri, but trying to convince people that think they know everything, can be almost impossible
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:03:58 pm CDT
Master Dak: This one thinks that we have established for the most part that Gor is roleplay. Some consider D/s roleplay and others do not. Again it is difference of opinion and lifestyle. It doesn't make one right and the other one wrong. Some just look at if differently. Some have no clue.....but that doesn't mean you have to be rude to them, or critize them for their life choices. After all is that not the tenant of D/s? People who have different likes and different lifestyles coming together to explore? Why does one have to be right and the other wrong?
aura{Hunter} 20:04:07 pm CDT
presses her form into Masters legs as she kneels at His feet ....listens to the conversation with much interest.
Dak 20:06:38 pm CDT
aw, so you believe there can be all kinds of variations to Gor, I've always assumed that the GS manual and info pages set ou what they wanted this site to be !
Lita, Physician 20:06:47 pm CDT
Msybe I am missing something, shuri. I have visited the DM at Poolside a few tImes, briefly, and all I saw was general, mundane chit-chat. NO role-playing or "scening" as I guess they call it, of any kind.
Hunter{aura} 20:06:51 pm CDT
I think that this forum the times I have managed to get here almost always ends up as argument albeit respectful and mosty friendly about those two philosophies around the roleplay experience
I would add that in My humble view the dm is hardly a shining beacon of what D/s is about and therefore not a great comparison
Thadron - Captain/Slave Master 20:07:03 pm CDT
slips in quietly, nodding to those present
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:07:15 pm CDT
*nods to Mistress Lita* Then if that is the attitude we take.....and I am not saying it necessarily wrong......there will always be empty rooms and deficit of players. Most roleplayers are very creative beings and don't like the letter of the law always being shoved down their throats. Therefore, if pure Gor is wanted, there will be only be a few who wish to play those by those rules. So you have to ask yourself.....are you happy with just a few people showing up once in awhile to play, or do want a the rooms full with people who create a varied environment.
Lita, Physician 20:08:10 pm CDT
Captain Thadron!! How wonderful to see You! We were beginning to fear You had gotten lost!
Lita, Physician 20:09:23 pm CDT
Most of us here tend to prefer pure Gor, shuri. That's why this site was created.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:10:07 pm CDT
Master Dak: For the record, this one is more of a purest roleplayer and she would prefer things be done by the book and they way they have been set up by the Council. BUT, she has roleplayed in many types of environments with roleplay that involved rules and books and such. she is just stating what is, not the way she would like it to be. *smiles*
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:10:58 pm CDT
And being the devil's advocate, this one could argue that what goes on here is not always a shining example of Gor as well. *Raises an eyebrow*
Ramses, Captain of GS 20:11:34 pm CDT
*chuckling*
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:12:30 pm CDT
Sorry, this one is scribing as well so she is trying to keep up.
Hunter{aura} 20:13:29 pm CDT
one could argue that pure gor wouldnt have a forum cos slaves have no voice...and the Masters have better things to do with slaves than talk....grins
Dak 20:13:33 pm CDT
from what I have witnessed there is already to much BDSM creep here already anymore !
Lita, Physician 20:13:48 pm CDT
That is also true, shuri. None of Us are perfect. But within our limits, We do try. I have visited many Homes over the years, and this one comes the closest at present. At least it's not like one Home I visited years ago, that claimed that Vampires could have come to Gor in the Voyages of acquisition, and when I visited they were sitting discussing their Vampire Avatars! *LOL*
shimmer{GS} 20:14:05 pm CDT
it is interesting that it is said that you are always by the book and for the most part we are but there are some things that are in the books that we also don't do...
so in some respects we also need to respect all from where they come from as they may do things differently than we do..
Lita, Physician 20:14:57 pm CDT
True, Hunter. But, We do do certain things to help folks learn, and Forum is one of those things.
Dak 20:16:06 pm CDT
the things we don't do becuz in roleplay they are impossible, plus we have some things that aren't in the books, to make it more interesting in the roleplay of the tavern atmosphere
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:16:41 pm CDT
*laughs hearing Mistress Lita* Would have to agree Vampires might be pushing it a bit far.....
Thadron - Captain/Slave Master 20:21:40 pm CDT
the rooms are as good as the people in it.... and this is a good group of people that have persevered through a lot and the room remains open and more populated than some and trying to do our best to make the roleplay work should always be our top priority
Hunter{aura} 20:21:53 pm CDT
I would say that if Norman had known there would be roleplay chat based on his books when he started...he would have done a lot of things different
stopped writing perhaps....LOL
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:23:05 pm CDT
*Snorts hearing Master Hunter* Indeed......*laughing*
shimmer{GS} 20:24:25 pm CDT
laughs listening or at least got a good editor
Lita, Physician 20:24:49 pm CDT
Hunter it is rather well known that Norman HATES the on-line role-play of his books! *chuckle*
Thadron - Captain/Slave Master 20:25:15 pm CDT
I don't think there is any evidence that JN used an editor at all ~lol~
Lita, Physician 20:25:44 pm CDT
And remember, when Norman began writing, there were no chat rooms and role-play rooms. There really wasn't "On-Line" as we know it.
shimmer{GS} 20:26:08 pm CDT
nope but he needed one thinks he is dyslexic like this girl
Hunter{aura} 20:27:17 pm CDT
But nevertheless it is what it is and there will always be some varying opinion on how true one should try to be..I think you all do a darn good job ....as Thadron says through many trying circumstances...the thing that always strikes Me is that one is compelled to do as the romans do as it were....which to Me says the site is true to the ideals
shareen[Rm] 20:26:16 pm CDT
~agreeing with Master Thadron, remembering the books she did read years ago.. giggles~
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:27:28 pm CDT
*grins hearing Mistress Lita* This one did not know that.
Dak 20:27:47 pm CDT
that's similar to them making up all the different religions according to the Bible !
Lita, Physician 20:28:45 pm CDT
Thadron, remember that in those days an author was paid by the word. And the publishers were the predecessors of the "vanity" publishing houses, so no, there wasn't much in the way of editing. Now when he was well enough known to be translated into other languages, the foreign publishers edited the books according to their standards of publications, which caused other problems with the books! *LOL*
Hunter{aura} 20:28:51 pm CDT
Lita....maybe Norman isnt a very good roleplayer and got knocked back by a slave or two....chuckles...that would explain his hatred
Thadron - Captain/Slave Master 20:30:04 pm CDT
somehow we still enjoy the books even though we have to wade through a whole lot of crap along the way
Lita, Physician 20:32:30 pm CDT
Norman was not really an author to begin with. He was a professor of philosophy at a university, and wrote the first book on a bet with a friend that he could write something and get it published. And a lot of his writing does get rather pedantic and "academic" in style at times.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:34:34 pm CDT
This one thought this question was a very interesting one.
4) Explain how it is possible to be a "bad guy" (antagonist) and still be honorable.
Many of those who play bad guys do so with the intention of taking down a certain person or destroy the roleplaying environment for everyone.
But would think if someone was going to play a antagonist, they should not take it to far, not kill established characters without their approval, and they would roleplay the fact that antagonist have weaknesses as well as strengths.
Dak 20:34:55 pm CDT
I read somewhere that He wrote them as an objection to this country's ERA amendment !
Kazar~infamous pirate 20:35:24 pm CDT
shimmer some things dont relate in r/p frpm the books
Lita, Physician 20:35:40 pm CDT
That is possible too, Dak.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:36:24 pm CDT
This one thinks Norman's philosophy digressed into his own imaginary world of what women should be. *grins*
Hunter{aura} 20:36:37 pm CDT
but regardless of literary merit...they are good fun and his writing style is so personal one cant help but be there
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:37:28 pm CDT
Master Dak......that definitely makes sense with the philosophy of Gor.
Hunter{aura} 20:37:52 pm CDT
yes shuri...and he would have been reading heinlein ...whose philosophy was very liberal and didactic also
Dak 20:38:02 pm CDT
most good writers have to have a good imagination !
shimmer{GS} 20:39:47 pm CDT
girl's old Master loved to play the antagonist... most thought his ways of treating his slaves were harsh but girl will say Master defended his girls loved his girls disciplined his girls and did not take crap from his girls... he made you feel in your heart that you were controlled owned and wanted even when he was whipping your ass... he did it with a purpose of teaching....
Hunter{aura} 20:42:31 pm CDT
depends on what the point of antagonism is....it can be proactive or merely destructive
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:42:33 pm CDT
*grins hearing shimmer* And so it should be......
Hunter{aura} 20:43:18 pm CDT
so your saying he liked your ass shimmer....*grins*
Dak 20:43:25 pm CDT
discipline teaches self discipline !
Hunter{aura} 20:44:36 pm CDT
self discipline is the only kind really...without it we have anarchy
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:44:56 pm CDT
*nods to Master Hunter* This one has witnessed those who play an antagonist character simply because they are pissed at someone or at the group as a whole and do everything in their power to try to kill of characters and cause strife and disruption.
There are ways to play antagonists that actually create good storyline for others to play around.
Thadron - Captain/Slave Master 20:44:57 pm CDT
the antagonist is clearly a part of the books, right.. but as in everything else, there are those who can play it well and those who play it only for their own gain (not necessarily foreign to the books either), and those who just play it poorly and I believe try to cover their own weakness with an outward bullying nature... that's why we have this Forum so that we can discuss when the bad guys are destroying our home and keep it from happening...
Dak 20:45:37 pm CDT
I don't think self discipline is the only kind !
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:47:04 pm CDT
*hears Master Dak and her lips quirk in a little smile*
Lita, Physician 20:47:37 pm CDT
True Dak. Some have to be disciplined because they HAVE no self-discipline
Thadron - Captain/Slave Master 20:49:42 pm CDT
but I believe that it is very important for a Gorean to be able to face an antagonist and not back down... and for slaves to learn how to handle adverse conditions as well.. that is from the books
shimmer{GS} 20:51:00 pm CDT
Master if he did not like what one of his slaves did no matter what you would know it he did not care if you were in a group of people and say you forgot to greet one if he saw it he would grab you by the scruff of your neck make you crawl up to them and beg them for forgiveness.. if you missed something in a serve most would would say something and move on not Master insteas he would call you over and say did you forget something... and you better hope you could remember what you forgot he then would sway if you answered him correctly... now crawl to the kitchens beast and do it right... and balance the drink on your back when you bring the drink back... and you better not spill a drop... many thought it was to harsh but in truth most had total respect for him as his slaves the ones that stayed in his collar were good ones...
Dak 20:51:03 pm CDT
if we have kicked this around enough, I have another topic if any are interested
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:51:32 pm CDT
*nods* Tarl Cabot certainly faced His share of adversity in the books.
Hunter{aura} 20:52:03 pm CDT
I was speaking philosophically...and outside of gor.....consider this...self discipline is the fabric of society...laws only work if people follow them....once broken punishment follows ...not discipline..and it takes self discipline to punish....only have to look at how the psychologists work to soften punishment in the modern age to see that
Thadron - Captain/Slave Master 20:53:11 pm CDT
I wish you all well...
rt is pulling Me once more
Lita, Physician 20:53:12 pm CDT
but Hunter, that is why we have to have laws. Because some folks have no self discipline and will do things that are not acceptable to the rest of society. The laws and their implementation ARE the discipline
Hunter{aura} 20:54:08 pm CDT
laws only work as long as the majority are prepared to follow them Lita
Dak 20:54:13 pm CDT
oh, but without discipline at an early age, it sometimes take years to have the self discipline to succeed !
Hunter{aura} 20:54:59 pm CDT
just the same as here in rp....it only works if we follow the rules
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:55:18 pm CDT
HHmm, that could be an interesting subject someday. Is punishment discipline?
Lita, Physician 20:55:43 pm CDT
That is why we have law enforcement,, Hunter. To make sure folks DO follow them. Whether those that don't are few or many.
Dak 20:55:46 pm CDT
a society without moral values, can never have enough laws to control it !
Lita, Physician 20:56:52 pm CDT
Dak isn't that kind of where this country is right now?
Hunter{aura} 20:58:51 pm CDT
that I agree with Dak....and there is a major problem in our society...no doubt
unfortunately psychology amid post colonial guilt has worked to make parents feel guilty about the very discipline of children that is crucial to responsible adulthood later on
shimmer{GS} 20:59:32 pm CDT
sorry girl needs to go to r/t she just realized something and it is killing her... sorry..
shuri {ShadowHawk} 21:00:48 pm CDT
Not only makes them feel guilty about it, but is trying to put them in jail for it as well in some instances.
Lita, Physician 21:01:17 pm CDT
Alas, it is time for Me to go as well. I wish All here well, enough, and great joy.
Dak 21:02:37 pm CDT
I shall call the Form to a close, and thank all for coming, and participating in a lively Forum, ,
thanks shuri for scribing