Present:
Thorrn
Dak
ShadowHawk
Lita
snowrose
shuri
malena
Jarl Thorrn 20:05:44 pm CST
I think ee are a nice little crowd now and start forum night.
The principle rules, especially for the newbies.
During Forum everyone can whisper topics of interest to Gorean life to the Forum leader of the night (tonight it is Me) and He will post the topics to the crowd.
Everybody can talk and discuss the topics.
Forum is ooc but of course slaves still have to behave with repsect to the Free, but slaves don´t have to ask permission to talk at forum or to leave forum.
I declare forum opened and from now on greetings and Tals are to be whispered.
At forums permission is not needed to whisper, not even by slaves.
Any topics ... whisper to Me.
Jarl Thorrn 20:09:32 pm CST
Starts to read a looong topic whisper I just received.
So in a few ihn the discussion will start.
Jarl Thorrn 20:13:22 pm CST
A good topic which will be of interest for a newbie to Gor.
Thanks to the whisperer in her Greens *s*
Norman's view of "Men vs Males"
Quotes For This Week
"'She does not yet feel as a female, so she does not yet move as a female. I think she does not yet know what it is to be female.'
'That,' I said, 'she will learn from a man.'
'Are all women of Earth like that?' asked the man.
'Many,' I said, 'not all.'
'It must be a dreary place,' said the man.
'On Earth,' I said, 'women try to be identical with men.'
'Why should that be?' asked the man.
'Perhaps because there are few men,' I said.
'The male population is small?' he asked.
'There are many males,' I said, 'but few men.'
'I find this hard to understand,' said the slave master.
I smiled. 'The distinction,' I said, 'makes little sense to a Gorean.'
He shrugged." - Tribesmen of Gor, page 75
"'I do not blame the males,' I said, 'nor the females. Both are fellow victims. In virtue of historical factors, social, institutional and technological, having to do with the development of a given world, the male, from the cradle, is programmed with anti-masculine values, taught to distrust his instincts, to hate and fear them, and, ideally, to revel in his de-masculinization. He lives miserably, of course, unfulfilled, frustrated, subject to hideous diseases, and has little to console himself with other than the ignorant servility with which he has worn his chains, taking smug, righteous pride in his allegiance to them.'
'On such a world, then, women have won?' asked the man.
'No,' I said, 'the machine has won. Women, too, have lost.'
'Surely, someday on Earth, said the man, 'the males will dare to be men?'
'I do not think so,' I said, 'save for rare individuals. The process of teaching, unconscious, subtle, pervasive, is too effective. It is not unusual for a woman to fear her womanhood; what is less generally recognized is that many men fear their own manhood; they conceal their blood; they pretend it does not exist; it is even dangerous, in such a society, to suggest that men consider honesty in such matters, to suggest that they dare to be men, to suggest that they might, if they wished, tear away their own chains. The weakest, the most trapped among them, are often the first, with hysteria, knowing they themselves are not strong enough to take their rightful freedoms, and envying others they fear might have the strength, to denounce such modest suggestions.'
'The weak,' said the man, 'are always those who fear the strong.'
'They fear, not strangely, a world in which not everyone is like themselves.'
'Let us all be weak, for I am weak,' smiled the man.
'Yes,' I said." - Tribesmen of Gor, page 75 & 76
Questions
1) Are there events in today's society that contribute to the "de-masculinization" of men like there were during the time Norman wrote Tribesmen (1966)?
2) How does the "fear of manhood or womanhood" affect Gorean philosophy as the quotes suggest?
3) Why is earth a "dreary place" in a Gorean's eyes?
ShadowHawk 20:13:31 pm CST
*stepping in seeing mine, settling down close to her, nodding with wave to all*.. Tal and greetings all
*looking at mine, patting place close by me*
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:14:48 pm CST
*smiles widely see her Master, moving over kneel at His side. Taking her papers with her.*
ShadowHawk 20:19:56 pm CST
1) Are there events in today's society that contribute to the "de-masculinization" of men like there were during the time Norman wrote Tribesmen (1966)?
Of course, from the moment the males start kindergarten they are constantly reminded and admonished to treat girls gently.
2) How does the "fear of manhood or womanhood" affect Gorean philosophy as the quotes suggest?
This would take all night to explain my view, but men are afraid of taking charge due to their upraising on how to treat girls/ladies/women.
3) Why is earth a "dreary place" in a Gorean's eyes?
Gor is a Mans world, earth is not. Simple as that.
Jarl Thorrn 20:22:29 pm CST
1) Are there events in today's society that contribute to the "de-masculinization" of men like there were during the time Norman wrote Tribesmen (1966)
I think those events are much stronger society today. It sails under things like political correcetness, gender quotes and demeaning male atitudes like strength and power and wanting to subtsitute them with wishy-washy talking about things till everyone tried out.
The tendency to hone away differences in Men and women is going on and on.
Lita, Physician 20:22:36 pm CST
Shadow Hawk, how is treaating women "gently", i. e. diffent than men, de-masculinizing? I'd think it woulds stress more the differences.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:22:56 pm CST
*grins a little* Uh-oh, Master can type again.....
Jarl Thorrn 20:25:23 pm CST
2) People are afraid to be truely male or female because they get scolded for that as a public opinions want people to be equal ... misunderstanding equal rights for persons with being equal.
ShadowHawk 20:26:22 pm CST
Lita because a woman, yourself is no different than I am. The way we are constantly, meaning we men, from first day in school to today we are constantly told to watch out, not be to rough, step aside so she can come through, yada yada yada... soon, MOST boys start to think women need be treated like crystal... not approached nor touched but looked after.. that is not gorean, nor the native american way
ShadowHawk 20:26:22 pm CST
Lita because a woman, yourself is no different than I am. The way we are constantly, meaning we men, from first day in school to today we are constantly told to watch out, not be to rough, step aside so she can come through, yada yada yada... soon, MOST boys start to think women need be treated like crystal... not approached nor touched but looked after.. that is not gorean, nor the Native American way.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:26:31 pm CST
This one agrees. Political correctness has permeated many aspects of society and not always in a good way. It's not just men or women, everyone is afraid of offending someone in someway anymore.
Dak 20:28:17 pm CST
in politics, it appalls Me, that many males think like females, more sympathy and less common sense !
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 20:29:11 pm CST
Free Women on Gor are treated as precious, with deep respect. But always a heartbeat away from a collar, so they have a fine line to tread
Jarl Thorrn 20:29:17 pm CST
nods to shuri, everyone is afarid to have an opinion because it could offend, or at least make someone else feel uncomfortable, like all people are kids and not grow up and accept that there are different views and opinions in this world.
Rather pretend that there are none and that makes people happy.
ShadowHawk 20:29:39 pm CST
aye.. here here.. *thumbing fist gainst me chest*.. I agree completely Dak
Jarl Thorrn 20:30:51 pm CST
That collar from a Free Woman is just a heartbeat away is misisng on earth My snowrose... unfortunately *chuckles*
ShadowHawk 20:31:38 pm CST
*having heard her earlier but now clucking, I goose then pinch mine, laughing*.. aye girl, I have the cast off and able to type now.. lol.. *winking to her and all that are present*
Lita, Physician 20:31:48 pm CST
But Shadow Hawk, the author Himself stresses that womemn are physically much weaker than Men, and could never win a fight with a Man. Isn't that in common with Men being taught that women are fragile and must be cared for? Free Women in the books not daring to travel alone but needing to be guarded and so on? I thought "Women's Lib" was about saying women are the same as or equal to Men, where Gorean philosophy stresses that they are not?
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 20:29:11 pm CST
Free Women on Gor are treated as precious, with deep respect. But always a heartbeat away from a collar, so they have a fine line to tread ....
aye, very true rose, however, the person/male behind the screens here are earth males and how they are raised presents the difference on how an online Gorean community will grow or fall
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:33:09 pm CST
*grins a bit* Have to agree about common sense......though not necessarily agree that all men have common sense and women do not. Think there are both on either side of that fence.
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 20:33:35 pm CST
many of the early tenets of Women's Lib that she has read about were unrealistic...you have to use common sense...we're different
ShadowHawk 20:34:18 pm CST
Actually "Womens Lib" is about women taking a step up and stating "men are not needed for us to flourish! ERA is about equality between men and women, races, so on and so forth.
Lita, Physician 20:35:25 pm CST
Jarl Thorrn, if You read message boards on-line, it does appear that people DON'T grow up and that there are other opinions different than theirs! And the families of criminal all whine that folks are being "mean" to their boy by saying he's a bad boy because he raped, robbed or killed somebody, maybe more than once.
Jarl Thorrn 20:35:50 pm CST
I thought "Women's Lib" was about saying women are the same as or equal to Men ....
looks around and thinks , good luck Women are not sames as nor equal Men. There are nice differences *S*
Dak 20:36:48 pm CST
that is why children need a male parent and female parent, so they can see and grow with the input of both, and so they can experience the softness of a mother, and the inner strength of the male
Lita, Physician 20:37:26 pm CST
correction : don't grow up and ACCEPT that there are other opinions....
ShadowHawk 20:37:57 pm CST
Again.. wow, that is two for two I agree with you Dak.. lol
Jarl Thorrn 20:38:02 pm CST
So true Lita, on message boards it seems like mankind developed backwards and never grows up anymore. That is why i stopped already some years ago to take part in message board discussions and postings. It is justw orth it, hardly anyone on a message board wants to learn, most want to rant and just spurt their opinion into the world.
Lita, Physician 20:38:11 pm CST
Ooh I agree with that, Jarl Thorrn
ShadowHawk 20:40:18 pm CST
We are going off on tangent now and talking of personal opinions about earth today, the original question is in reference to Gor not Earth. How a Gorean Man does not understand how men are not men here when he sees that Tarl is indeed a Man. However he didn't start as one, in fact in the first two books he were very much an earth man, timid, shy, not wanting step on toes. If he had not grown nor been shown the way of a Gorean Male, he soon too would have been killed.
Jarl Thorrn 20:41:03 pm CST
Just to repeat the questions of the topic.
Questions
1) Are there events in today's society that contribute to the "de-masculinization" of men like there were during the time Norman wrote Tribesmen (1966)?
2) How does the "fear of manhood or womanhood" affect Gorean philosophy as the quotes suggest?
3) Why is earth a "dreary place" in a Gorean's eyes?
ShadowHawk 20:41:07 pm CST
I agree with that Thorrn, which is why I only put jokes or give congrats where they are deserved on the boards.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:41:19 pm CST
*nods hearing Master Dak* As with anything, there is a balance, or there should be.
As what happens ofter in life......things swing from being to far one way, to being to far the other. Never seems to be able to achieve a happy medium.
But as far as Gor goes.....*grins* It is all good as long women behave the way they should.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:42:27 pm CST
*hears Mistress Lita* Yes, everyone is on board with the fact that everyone should have their own views and opinions, but the minute someone expresses an opinion someone else doesn't agree with, it is like a girl fight with hair pulling. *grins*
Dak 20:42:27 pm CST
the idea of equality in this country is like putting a 10#weight on one side of a scale and a 5# on the other side, so you end up taking away from the 2 12 # from the heavy side, and adding it to the 5# side, and make them equal, it still isn't realistic !
Lita, Physician 20:44:16 pm CST
*laughs* And that's just the guys, shuri! The girls are even worse! *snicker*
Jarl Thorrn 20:44:28 pm CST
Agrees with Shadowhak about those psotings.
Btw, the advantages of the Gorean world with discipline and strict rules shows in this topic. Here on the Corks I post for people to behave better, besides when a quarrel between two Free starts, which happnened in former times.
Dak 20:44:32 pm CST
if you have to weaken one to make them equal, society ends up the loser !
Jarl Thorrn 20:46:17 pm CST
chuckles to Lita and shuri.
Well observed and noted. Talking about something on a message board comes so quickly to a girls hair pulling .... even when those are boys *l*
The worse I found so far are Youtube comments and Yahoo news.
ShadowHawk 20:46:35 pm CST
Aye, what makes people equal in todays society is when one is willing to see and take advantage of how the other compromises the other. I am no good at many things, but very good in others.. so whomever, well for example, I just as soon pound somebody for their ignorance and girl here.. *hugging shuri to me tightly*, has better eyes than I do and sort of calms me down by stating explaining a different point of view. Many times she wins, a few she does not and I still pound the ignorance yada yada yada.. lol
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:47:26 pm CST
Are there events in today's society that contribute to the "de-masculinization" of men like there were during the time Norman wrote Tribesmen (1966)?
This one was just recently studying her child psychology class that it is normal for young boys to wrestle and set up a form of dominance on the playground, school, any place they congregate. Yet with that being said......it is not accepted by society to let them do that. They would be called out at school and reprimanded for such behavior.
Dak 20:47:42 pm CST
becuz on earth, people are almost like the sames in Blood Brothers of Gor, book 18, *smiles*
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:50:07 pm CST
*grins to Jarl Thorrn.* Have not seen much of it on the Corks, but the Dungeon and Pool boards.....oh good lord, it can get ugly.
Jarl Thorrn 20:50:28 pm CST
That is a big danger Dak, that society on Earth becomes close to the sames.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:51:41 pm CST
*grins hearing Master, not saying anything, just scribes diligently.*
Jarl Thorrn 20:51:56 pm CST
See shuri, the Dungeon and Pool boards are like most of message boards because there are no rules in the Pool and not in the DM which people have to respect and follow.
Jarl Thorrn 20:54:49 pm CST
One of the things that has changed very much since the 60ies years when the Gorean books started.
The sexual repression is not in place anymore. Men and W/women can enjoy their sexuality nearly unrestricted.
ShadowHawk 20:55:34 pm CST
excuse me.. RT is calling.. if I don't see any of you in hour, I wish the best
To the Men, winds and honor...
to Lita, I wish you well
to the slaves, serve well and heartily..
ShadowHawk 20:56:24 pm CST
*hearing Thorrn*.. when is last time you been to stateside.. lmao, which is why I want to go back to Germany! *laughing while heading out the door*
Lita, Physician 20:56:28 pm CST
I found it slightly amusing to read today, that despite all our "political correctness", they have run studies in schools on have the children in gender-separate classrooms, and that the boys do better that way, because most of their learning styles are different from girls
Dak 20:57:24 pm CST
yeah, and that is not all good either, *smiles*
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:57:37 pm CST
*grins* Well this one thinks that sexual repression has never been prevelent on Gor, except for maybe Free Women.
Dak 20:59:06 pm CST
I think the Gor books were written as disdain for the ERA !
Jarl Thorrn 20:59:40 pm CST
Reads Lita´s posting ... hhhhmmmmm
Here in some ways genders got sepearted for learning because edúcation people claimed that girls do better that way. With boys around girls don´t dare to talk and take part enough in the topics.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 21:00:58 pm CST
*laughs hearing Master* Well yes, in comparison to some other countries the U.S. still is sexually repressed.
*Hearing Mistress Lita* But if they did that, then they would say that the girls were being repressed by only teaching them one way. *sighs and shakes head*
Lita, Physician 21:01:40 pm CST
Quite possibly, Dak
Dak 21:01:56 pm CST
and as you will notice, males see to the management of a girl's fertility also ! prior to the '60's I think males managed it as well !
Jarl Thorrn 21:02:27 pm CST
reads shuri and thinks ... there is one good way to teach slaves ... with the whip on the table *grin*
Lita, Physician 21:02:39 pm CST
Jarl Thorrn, when did You EVER know a female to be reluctant to talk under ANY circumstances? *giggle*
shuri {ShadowHawk} 21:06:12 pm CST
*Laughs hearing Mistress Lita*
Jarl Thorrn 21:06:31 pm CST
When a Men wants to know it is often that the female says ... but i don´t wanna talk about it or not just now *L*
You know, the sentence .. we gotta talk ... is the sentence with the most lies , 3 words and 3 lies. It applies only when the females wants to talk *L*
But besiders that i agree with You, women talk just to assure that they are still alive *grin*
Jarl Thorrn 21:09:18 pm CST
I wonder about the remarks about repressive sexual habits in the USA in these days - STILL?????
But on the other side, the USA always claims to be a nation of freedome BUT in truth they are one of the stictest nations to watch other people not to deviate from what public opinionthinks how things have to be and no chance for another opinion is welcome.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 21:09:48 pm CST
*grins* Better not ask this one what is wrong or what she thinks, unless You really want to know because You are going to get an earful.
Dak 21:11:13 pm CST
well, let us hear it, shuri, *smiles*
Jarl Thorrn 21:12:40 pm CST
Forum is to let other hear one´s opinion shuri.
So lets hear what you think, fill Oour ears *S*S*S*
shuri {ShadowHawk} 21:12:43 pm CST
Yep, more and more restrictions in the name of "keeping people safe" or "doing what is best for them."
Um.....there was recently a huge thing about women exposing their breasts in public to breastfeed babies. Actually, I believe there was a big to do about breast feeding in public even when covered up.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 21:14:30 pm CST
*grins to Master Dak* There are how many slave in this forum, and how many do You hear offering opinions about the topic. *Raises an eyebrow* In fact, one of the few slaves who consistently does. Even if Some don't agree......*smiles sweetly*
Jarl Thorrn 21:16:20 pm CST
I noted that discussion even here in Europe shuri.
To the ears here things like that sound very ridiculous, here mother just do it and good it is.
I so hate this motherly ... I only do what is best for you.
Damn, I have a right to be wrong.
That reminds me of an old saying
Education means to envy others the bad experiences.
Dak 21:17:02 pm CST
Well, what I learned thru My life, is to let a female be liberally, and you can soon figure how to Master her, *smiles*
Lita, Physician 21:21:53 pm CST
Alas, time for Me to get going. Enjoy the rest of the discussion. *S*
Jarl Thorrn 21:22:51 pm CST
What the public opinion of today totalyl denies is what i think i observed in My life.
Women indeed tend to a kind of submission, of course not all and in different amount, but they do. I assume that Woman´s lib knows this and it makes them angry a lot and they want to force their fellow sister out of this atitude by dememaning this female attitude and by putting men down and ridicule them and the idea of strength and power.
Jarl Thorrn 21:25:30 pm CST
Thinks about barring the door to prevent the exodus going on *grins and waves winds and be well to those who are leaving*
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 21:25:44 pm CST
snow is the only female in a group of 6...At first, she was sort of dismissed, even ignored...but she spoke up and said she expected to be treat with courtesy and respect, no Barbie jokes, etc.
And now, over a year later, she is the de facto leader of the group in many ways...of course she realizes that she gets to do more work...but the point is, her points are as valid as theirs now
shuri {ShadowHawk} 21:27:28 pm CST
Well part of that comes from men who are not really men, and thinking that because they are men and they stronger that they have a right to physically or mentally abuse women.
This one thinks that it is part of the nurturer in women that they want to care for not dominate the world. They want to feel wanted and taken care of, but when men do not behave as honorable men, then they get tired of being abused and not taken care of like they should. There are two sides to that coin. If a man wants a woman to be a woman, then He has to a the kind of man that allows her to be.
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 21:29:44 pm CST
~nods, agreeing with shuri~
Jarl Thorrn 21:30:09 pm CST
That is how i know My girl.
Not being afraid of making her point clear and making things work.
~smile~
Dak 21:30:22 pm CST
strangely what you describe is more prevalent now, than before ERA was past ! I think there was more respect before on both sides !
shuri {ShadowHawk} 21:32:05 pm CST
Sometimes women have to be strong because they have to, not necessarily because they want to.
Jarl Thorrn 21:32:39 pm CST
Agrees with shuri
Men aren´t perfect either and don´t behave right in everything either.
Both , Men and women, have to willingly and be able to learn and strive for development and perfection.
malena {GS} 21:32:59 pm CST
Although agreeing with shuri as well, I sit quietly in my new camsik.
Unsure to even speak, my folded legs melt.
Dak 21:35:55 pm CST
I don't think mankind is ever meant to be totally perfect, *smiles*
Jarl Thorrn 21:35:56 pm CST
I think so too Dak.
The respect for each has been greater.
To fight some kinds abuse the general estimation of respect got shattered a lot without putting soemthing else in that place to make society or families work. Without respect for each other things seldome work.
Even A master has to respect a slave in certains ways, even when the Gorean rules and habits don´t order this and the Master is totally free in His treatment of a slave.
Jarl Thorrn 21:37:28 pm CST
smiles over to malena who put in her two cents for the first time.
Just take part in the discussion if you wish to say something ~s~
Dak, i´m afraid with t hat You are right, mankind isn´t meant to be perfect *l*
malena {GS} 21:40:11 pm CST
~smiling back to Jarl Thorrn.
Though many women are strong in some ways, most love the thought of being taken care of.
My simple two cents Master. LOL
Dak 21:40:17 pm CST
it is not necessarily respect for the other person but respect for ones self !
shuri {ShadowHawk} 21:41:29 pm CST
*grins softly* Whether or not we are supposed to be perfect, the fact is, we are not.
Jarl Thorrn 21:43:11 pm CST
sure shuri, Gorean Masters aren´t content with anything less than their slaves being perfect.
It is good to be a Master and not the slave *grin*
malena {GS} 21:44:09 pm CST
But does not the Master help the slave become perfect and, in turn, help a Master become better?
shuri {ShadowHawk} 21:46:06 pm CST
*grins* Being perfect isn't about always doing everything correctly....sometimes it is just about being perfect for each O/other.
Jarl Thorrn 21:46:42 pm CST
That is how it should be malena.
A slave has to behave as her Master wants His slave to behave and be .... so a Master better teaches her how He wishes His slave to be.
Dealing with the slave or slaves has feedback on the Master and developes His skills as a Master and Men, if He is not stupid.
Dak 21:47:44 pm CST
I admit to being a perfectionist, but have a definition for perfectionist, is , an imperfect person striving for perfection, knowing He/She will never achieve it, *smile*
Jarl Thorrn 21:48:15 pm CST
so true shuri, being perfect for each other is the goal.
Sometimes it is pleasure when the slave is not perfect and gives the Master a reason to educate and discipline her *smiles sweetly*
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 21:49:46 pm CST
~tilts her head back and kisses under Master's chin, whispering meekly~ Yes my Master
malena {GS} 21:49:47 pm CST
~grins to shuri~
Fogive me for saying this, but each slave is different. No one will is the same.
I withraw my two scents. ~lol~
Jarl Thorrn 21:50:31 pm CST
Did everyone say what one wnated to say to that topic?
If yes i will close the forum for tonight and than A/all for taking part.
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 21:51:33 pm CST
snowrose has no more to say Master
Dak 21:51:43 pm CST
I think it I has been beat to death long enough, *smiles*
Jarl Thorrn 21:53:48 pm CST
In principle i agree Dak but some points and views are good to be repeated sometimes especially when new ones are around who learn about certain principles of this place.
Jarl Thorrn 21:54:20 pm CST
Thanks to the gone Lady for the topic of tonight and the others for talking *S*S*S*
shuri {ShadowHawk} 21:54:50 pm CST
*smiles to malena* A girl is right, no two Master's are the same, and no two girl's are the same. And simply serving One doesn't make Them a girl's Master, but simply A Master
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 21:55:14 pm CST
Thank You for leading the forum my Master..it was a lively discussion
thank you for scribing shuri
Dak 21:56:33 pm CST
aye, very true, , Thorrn
Jarl Thorrn 21:57:38 pm CST
So true those sentences shuri *S*
Thanks for scribing *hugs the slave *
wonders when the first slave will be auctioned off at ebay *chuckles as i read her icon*