Free Women
Lemuel~~~ ~S~ Alright, the Gorean Shores Forum is officially started. slaves need not beg to enter or leave during the forum. Greetings and chit chat should be kept to whispers. PM Me with a topic and we'll get things rolling.
~looking again to the first girl~ Were there any carry over topics from last week?
Rollo the Ax~~~ Do You want to run the forum, Lemuel ?? for the practice ??? Or would You rather I take it ???
fallen~angel~~~ ~*kneels quietly upon the furs and awaits the first topic*~
Lemuel~~~ ~opening My arms and shrugging~
It's all Yours Captain. ~G~
deka{Jake}~~~ ~snuggles with her sisters while waiting to hear the first topic~
jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~listening to His words.. softly offering~
one wasn't here last week, Master due to RT.. and if there was a forum, none had sent her notes.. she apologizes.
Rollo the Ax~~~ LOL...LOL.. well then, like Lemuel said, we are open for business...LOL.. Are there any carry over topics from last week ?? jasma ?? or if not, does anybody have a new topic ??
topaz~~~ *pushing open the heavy doors of the tavern, slides quietly in for the forum, hardly making a sound as a girl makes one's way to join her sisters, slides gracefully to a kneel, grinning....looking up briefly, then lowering eyes...listening, ready to learn...*
Rollo the Ax~~~ LOL.. No big deal, jasma... RT kept Me away also... SO.... no carry overs, on to the new..... ANYBODY ???
jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~smiling warmly to the giant Torvaldslander.. then snuggling cheek against Master Lemuel's thigh.. listening~
Rollo the Ax~~~ Looking about, to those present..... ???? nobody has ANY questions, comments, gripes ???? LOL..LOL.. If that is the case, I should start worrying.... When the troops aren't complaining, SOMETHING is wrong !!!!! LOL...LOL....LMAO....
Marius~~~ Laughing..I'll toss one out then Rollo...Free Women...lots to talk about there..LOL
Lemuel~~~ ~laughs~ Aye Captain! I usually threaten to talk about how to provide proper ventilation in the underground levels of buildings. That scares 'em into coming up with a topic right quick! ~grins~
Errand Knight~~~ *chuckles at Lemuel*
I would have a great deal to contribute to that topic Friend
Marius~~~ Several questions may be timely regarding them..
1. Just what constitutes a FW submission here at GS....
2. How does everyone feel about them being on the Council?
A few others come to mind but thats a start..LOL
marissa{HoS}~~~ ::looks up at Him as she hears His words and listens::
Bolt Sarakai~~~ Marius, you want a discussion or a war? ~laughs~
Rollo the Ax~~~ That is a ** broad ** subject, Brother Marius.. ( no insult really meant with the pun ) Y'all want to define it a bit more ??? LOL.
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding at the First Sword's words~
Aye, good topics both.
For the first, I think if a FW kneels to a Man and crosses her wrists asking for a collar, that is more than enough.
As to the second, I see no reason to exclude FW from the Council. They can never be Captains, but their opinions have some value.
Marius~~~ Laughing...A discussion Bolt...but if war is necessary, none here would run from it..LOL...at least it will get a few comments...LMAO
fallen angel~~~ ~*listens to the questions of Master Marious and chews on her lower lip thoughtfully as she ponders the questions*~
Marius~~~ LOL..it can be Broad Rollo...but not that "broad"..LOL...I'm sure it will take a track soon enough...LOL
Gornt~~~ I have to agree with Lemuel
jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~listening to the topic as it's brought forth.~
Gornt~~~ and sometimes Kayla is here when no others are
Gornt~~~ and didn't we just have this discussion a month ago
Bolt Sarakai~~~ If a FW submits to a warrior, this is in the books, he has two options. 1. Kill her and 2. Enslave her. It is that simple, so if a FW submits as Lemuel has said, then she is slave, even if she runs away before the kolar is placed on her throat.
marissa{HoS}~~~ ::shifts in her place biting her tongue::
deka{Jake}~~~ ~ponders the topic pearly whites sinking into soft flesh of lower lip~
Mandi~~~ One comment concerning Women on the Council. Though Their opinions have value, it sometimes places Them in peril and in awkward positions to have even the illusion of authority in a World ruled by Men, where Many believe even the lowliest peasant is more than a match for the best and the brightest of the Women.
fallen~angel~~~ is debt one way a FW can become enslaved? for instance, if She cannot pay Her debts can the One She owes money to enslave Her?
Gornt~~~ ~listening to Mandi~
~smiling~ and those with that attitude have never had daughters
Marius~~~ In recent memory there have been several cases of FW either actually submitting or just playing at it...we all know the rule of GS..Once a slave always a slave...but a few times there have been not real submissions...take for example BLA...some say she was here once as a slave...she claimed it was as a sub...how do we decide what sub or slave is?...
Rollo the Ax~~~ Aye, to My thinking, any submission would have to be open and obvious for all to see.... kneeling, crossing her wrists, etc. .... some folks think silly things like getting a man a drink or such are acts of submission.. I don't agree... ANY woman would * serve * such to a man, Free, or slave....
fallen~angel~~~ If a FW calls a Man Master?
Gornt~~~ aye Rollo
Marius~~~ Lemuel..we could have this topic daily and not address it all..LOL
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding~ Aye Mandi, that is true, but the Captains have the final say in anything.
topaz~~~ *listening closely, full lips pressed against Master EK's leg, then turning a girl's cheek so that it rests in their place*
Mandi~~~ Interesting question, fallen angel. The other day, an Auslander who comes in occasionally requested I call Him "Sir," and I declined politely, as that is not the correct and traditional form of address here. Occasionally, though Men are silly enough to put "Master" on Their handles in here, and new FW have been known to simply copy the handle as written in addressing Them. That is more in the nature of a typo and not any intent to submit.
Marius~~~ I'm well aware of that Lemuel.and I think we may have a few rulings coming up...just trying to get input
Mandi~~~ Final say to the Captains, or no, even the appearance of authority is perilous territory.
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding at the Senior Captain's comments~
I agree, Rollo. Unless the FW makes some overt act of submission, or acts in a manner that is clearly inappropriate, such as lapping or furring in public, then she should be treated as a FW.
fallen~angel~~~ ~*nods in agreement with Mistress Mandi*~
fa agrees with You Mistress....however were a FW known to everyone here to call say Master Rollo, Master, Could that be taken as Her submission to Him?
deka{Jake}~~~ if a collared sub come in here to visit and then later wants to be a part of Gor and decides it is a FW she wants to be, can she do that?
Bolt Sarakai~~~ Sometimes, a FW could be in a situation where she has to address man as master, exceptional circumstances. But once she knelt, crossed palms, which even without words is a sign of submission, she is slave. As well, there is slave like behavior, which is a vast, cloudy concept, and in such circumstances there would have to be a general discussion by the Council on the matter.
Mandi~~~ I would not believe on its own, a mere slip of the keyboard should matter, let Him who has never made a typo cast the first stone.
But We could make this a harsh world for poor typists.
Rollo the Ax~~~ That is also a matter to discuss.. this was asked as a topic... ** there is some confusion among the subs of dm on whether or not they are allowed to come in gs as FW if they have entered gs before as collared subs. ** The way I see it ( and remember, this is only MY opinion, or how I think things have been done in the past...) subs from BDSM, are NOT Gorean slaves... and so unless they come into GS AS collared slaves, and NOT just * subs * with BDSM collars, they have NOT been here as true slaves yet.... But they should be told about the long term * once a slave * policy here right from the start, so they can know what they are getting into if they DO enter as * slave *.....
Mandi~~~ ~~listening for responses to deka's very astute question~~
Errand Knight~~~ an interesting question deka
Kayla~~~ Depends on the context the Woman uses it in I would say fa... refering to Rollo as a Master is one thing to refer as Master is another ...
Like how to handle those that enter with Lord or Master in thier name?....
jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~softly offering a response to fa's earlier question~
jaz believes in Renegades of Gor, fa, that there was talk of debtor sluts in that book.. where they were used as slaves to pay off their debts.. or if a man had paid off their debt.. and one recalls that most were kept slave after.. she believes.
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding to Mandi~ Aye, typos should not be held against anyone. PK's know I make enough of them. ~G~
Molly~~~ Bolt if I may ask you a question in regards to your last statement please.
fallen~angel~~~ *listens and nods*
Kayla~~~ BDSM are not Gorean slaves...
deka{Jake}~~~ ~listens to Master Rollo's answer and smiles softly as she nods~
Bolt Sarakai~~~ Go ahead Molly, that is what this forum is all about.
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding~ No, BDSM subbies aren't automatically slaves in the Gorean sense. subbies still have a certain amount of free choice, Gorean slaves don't.
Gornt~~~ and how do you tell the difference between a BDSM collar and slave kolar, hehehehehehehe
besides spelling
Gornt~~~ deka's collar looks like vika's
fallen~angel~~~ there is a huge difference between a Gorean slave and a BDSM submissive, fa wouldn't think that because one was a submissive in BDSM that she would be a slave here....fa was a gorean slave before she entered into BDSM so therefore here she will always be a slave.
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding to Gornt~ That is where the confusion comes from I think. A subbie enters with a BDSM collar and We often assume that they are Gorean slaves.
fallen~angel~~~ thank you jaz, fa wasn't sure about that. *smiles*
deka{Jake}~~~ the question arose in a discussion today in DM and none was sure of the answer. deka figured this was the best time to get the answer for her sisters.
Rollo the Ax~~~ If we get so * nit picky * that even calling some dip stick *Master* this or that, because the Guy puts it in his name.... or calling any Free man * Master * as part of his name, then I think we have reached the point that we are just looking for ways to harrass FW... Come on folks... there is a GREAT difference between calling some guy master this or that, and a woman refering to Him as her * MASTER *....
Mandi~~~ And given the practicalities of virtual time slavery, welcoming Our Friends and the subs from DM into Our home to explore Gor is a good move for both rooms. We need to welcome New People, regardless of Free or slave status, rather than make it impossible for Them to even see what We are about.
jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~smiling warmly towards fa as she scribes the notes.. whispering~. you're welcome
Bolt Sarakai~~~ Well yes, confusion would be there. Any woman in a kolar is a slave to someone or something, in either realm. I hear what Rollo says but if slaves of either realm come in here and serve, then I will treat them like a gorean slave.
fallen~angel~~~ how about if a FW dances....do FW dance and if so how? are they less provocative?
Gornt~~~ of course We do Lemuel, there is no difference in here
Errand Knight~~~ the fundamentals of D/s and gor are different
doesnt mean that a rt submissive would not wish to find slavery on gor or that a Dom/me would not seek a Master or Mistress role ..but it doesn't follow and should never be assumed
marissa{HoS}~~~ ::nods her head as she agrees with Mistress Mandi::
Lemuel~~~ ~idly twirling a sable lock of the first girl's hair around a finger as I listen~
Mandi~~~ ~~listening to Bolt~~ Aye, I tend to do the same thing when a sub is present, as I assume she is exploring this room. The distinction is whether that sub is allowed to function as a Free on entering with a capped name.
topaz~~~ *nodding at Mistress Mandi's words, smiling*
Molly~~~ ~smiles~ Thank you, can you be a little more specific on what types of things are considered being submissive as a Free Woman? Do you mean just any serve at all?
Gornt~~~ well they are perfectly safe in their Master's collars, unless they have no restrictions
hehehehehehehehehe
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding~ So how do We tell the difference? Should one announce that they are a *newbie* upon entrance?
Mandi~~~ fa, the quotes I have read on the topic provide for FW dancing on special celebrations, modestly clad and in large numbers and definitely not provocatively, such as the arrival of an important dignitary in the City or a couple of the festivals.
jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~dark pools sparkle as His finger twirls around strands of hair.. listening and scribing the words spoken~
Khash~~~ Perhaps a change in the bracket types would be appropriate...curly brackets for DM and square brackets on the kolars for Gor.
Gornt~~~ or round parentheses for Gor
Khash~~~ Aye....some standard should prevail and discerning a slave from a sub would be far easier.
Rollo the Ax~~~ as for the BDSM folks coming here, or us there ???? Titles or names do NOT always mean the same to all ppl... Doms are NOT Masters, nor are subs slaves... In a Gorean context... that we use the same names or titles is only a chose of words... BDSM is BDSM, and Gor is Gor.... and until those from either make a conscience * choice * to take part in either/or, we should NOT make them suffer for using the same names.....
fallen~angel~~~ thank You Mistress Mandi ~*warm smile*~
Mandi~~~ Hmmmmm.....practical suggestion, Khash. But I would suggest it be vice versa, as I am accustomed to the curly brackets denoting slaves. It would also be possible to put DM beside the collar to delineate the sub from the slave. I will admit that such tags as "Brat" and so forth inform Me which girls are subs in some instances.
Lemuel~~~ Perhaps it could be as simple as adding *Visitor* to one's tag?
Bolt Sarakai~~~ ~Laughs~ No I don't mean any serve at all. For example, if the tavern is empty of slaves and My Woman was in here, then I would expect her to show our guests the hospitality of our home and serve the free present. But in saying that she would not serve in the same manner as a slave. Like falling into nadu position for example.
The whole concept of slave like behaviour is cloudy, as John Norman does not much go into the subject in the books. But if a FW lapped a man other than her own man, and then showed sexual desire then I would consider that slave like. She should then be face stripped and made slave.
Did you have a specific topic or example Molly?
vika{Marius}~~~ ~vika feels that sub or slave.....both serve both are in submission therefore should remain a slave...*softly* There is not a difference in kneeling as a sub or kneeling as a kajira...ya still kneeling.....even thought there are differences betwixt the two.....~
Errand Knight~~~ it is a simple thing to ask ...I know that when visitors from other parts of gor come to the tavern they usually clarify who I am as I have gratefully been allowed to keep the only name I have ever used in vt and it is obviously not gorean
Mandi~~~ I was once told it was slavelike to take more than one post to serve. If no slaves are about, common sense dictates that We can All find the drinks if We thirst.
Lemuel~~~ ~S~ Aye vika, but FW women also kneel. They just kneel differently than the slave.
vika{Marius}~~~ ~vika grins at Master Lemuel......~
topaz~~~ *agreeing with vika*
Gornt~~~ ~listening~
Lemuel~~~ ~grins at E.K.~ Aye, I mistook You for a Warrior at first. I had to be told You wore green. ~chuckles~
deka{Jake}~~~ ~agrees with vika too~
fallen~angel~~~ isn't face stripping a serious crime? fa seems to recall that she read that somewhere.....
Bolt Sarakai~~~ When a new person comes into GS, with a lower capped name, I inform them that they have entered as a slave, and thus will be treated as such. I hear what you are all saying, but, they wear a kolar. If, they want to explore Gor, then they should come in as a free, and then decide what they want to do from there.
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding to fa'~ Yes, most places it is a crime if it is done without good reason - but if the woman is acting like a slave and it can be proven, the magistrates would put her in a collar.
fallen~angel~~~
"An unowned girl, a free woman, thus, can never experience her full sexuality…Passion, it is thought, deprives the free woman to some extent of her freedom and important self-control; it is frowned upon because it makes her behave, to some extent, like a degraded female slave; free women, thus, to protect their honor and dignity, their freedom and personhood, their individuality, must fight passion;… the free woman must remain cool and in control of herself, even in the arms of her companion, to avoid being truly 'had,'…" (Tribesman of Gor, p.17)
Mandi~~~ ~~looks to fa~~ Who would prosecute?
Molly~~~ Well I had that situation arise where all of the slaves had left and I without being asked served Sabre and myself but you answered my question completely. Thank you
fallen~angel~~~ so since there are no Magistrates here and a FW is face stripped, fa would imagine that a C&P of the event would be presented to the Council and They would make a decision on if it was a fair face stripping or not. In the instance that it was unfair and the FW did not deserve to be face stripped, what would happen to the Free Man who face stripped Her?
deka{Jake}~~~ since the subject of face stripping has been brought. if a FW upon leaving the tavern took her veils off and dropped them to the floor is that an act of self face stripping?
Rollo the Ax~~~ Molly.... the differences between the way FW do things and the way the slaves do them are at times easy to see and at others hard.... a FW is not really * serving *, she is just kind of fetching a drink or such ..... she is doing it because she wants to help, not because she HAS to... okay ???
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding~ Exactly fa'. As to what would happen ~shrugs~ that would be up to the Captains.
vika{Marius}~~~ ~vika also feels that some use it as an excuse...to move about freely without any fear....she feels when a sub enters here...she is not different than slave...and should have the exact same protocols.....*softly* and *respectfully*~After all, a collar just is....~
Molly~~~ Is that also so if the Man of the FW insists on it? open affection is a no no?
ie: holding hands, touching are those not permitted
Errand Knight~~~ Bolt: the difficulty with an uncollared submissive coming in as a Fw to learn is that some, like Me, are wedded to one name only ....because part circumstances have shown them that many use multiple identities to deceive ...I suppose they could just cap their usual name
Mandi~~~ I would guess that the legal status of the FW would be restored, but nothing consequential would be issued upon the Free Man.
fallen~angel~~~ i mean There is no law in the books (that fa has read) that states a free woman may be legally enslaved for being insolent, insulting, ridiculing or demeaning a man so what is a Good reason for face stripping a FW?
Gornt~~~ I agree with vika
Kayla~~~ Are You saying Bolt that Phen though could lap You in the Tavern and that is acceptable? ~astonished look~
Bolt Sarakai~~~ There is that quote fallen angel, but there are several, if not dozens that are in contradiction to it ~laughs~ There is the freed slave, does she lose her passion? Or just have to learn to conceal it better? What of the FW that is tied to the couch because she is not pleasing enough in the furs? ~laughs~ Norman is full of contradictions.
Lemuel~~~ ~looking to deka~ If she has left the GS tavern, then for all practical purposes she is not on Gor. Face-stripping is meaningless outside a Gorean room.
Molly~~~ I didnt know there were FM in GS...paying closer attention to Mandi.
fallen~angel~~~ aiii Master Bolt, He sure is *laffin softly* and also repetitive
Mandi~~~ Nay, deka it is not, as outside the Tavern is no longer Gor. I realize that with the multiple rooms this can sometimes get confusing. I have had some problems with interacting in the pool and slaves visiting from other sites commenting to me, confused by it. The Captains have no control outside GS over anyone's virtual time.
Gornt~~~ Free Men
calia{GS}~~~ *~looking to fa~* one reason, as with Talena ~ Her Homestone was ~raided~ and Her Father was no longer Ubar..
calia believes she faced being stripped....tho this girl is only just getting to that part *l*
deka{Jake}~~~ if she does it in the tavern before leaving Master Lemuel?
vika{Marius}~~~ ~vika smiles...agreeing with Master Bolt Sarakai...that He is...~
fallen~angel~~~ ohhhhhhhh fa would be interested in what happens calia *grins*
Mandi~~~ ~~chuckles to Kayla~~ I believe that Your Men are Ubars within the circles of Their Swords and Their Word would go, Kayla, even if it looked bad to Others.
Bolt Sarakai~~~ ~Laughs~ Bloody oath I am Kayla, and I have thrown her on my lap more times than a slave. She is My Woman, like a wife on earth, and if I wish her to lap me, then so it shall be done. Who is to say what I can and can't do with My Woman? Although, I understand the boundaries and some are not crossed. And in saying that if she did it to another man, she would be in steel quicker than a bolt from a crossbow ~laughs~
vika{Marius}~~~ ~IF before leaving the Tavern...then She is still in the Tavern...*smiles*~
Gornt~~~ ~smiling at Bolt's sense of quick justice~
Lemuel~~~ ~smiling~ Ah, now that would be different. The protocols of GS say that FW must wear veils.
fallen~angel~~~ that is hard online, to take off her own veils and toss them on the floor after she has left the Tavern well She'd have to PM that to someone in the room.
vika{Marius}~~~ ~vika has spoken of this...and in thinking....a Woman is a Woman....whether capped or not....and A/all should remember the food chain...*respectfully*~That being a 'Man's world'....It is harsh...but none~the~less true.
deka{Jake}~~~ then it is not appropriate Master Lemuel? sorry deka has confused herself ~soft laugh~
desiree{Algernon}~~~ but what if she removed the veils before she left the room?
Gornt~~~ food chain is apt vika
Mandi~~~ ~~smiles at Lemuel~~ There are certain exceptions, such as the orders of a FW's Man.
Gornt~~~ are we picking fly shit out of pepper here
Lemuel~~~ ~smiles~ No deka. A FW should not remove her veils in the tavern, unless of course she is ordered to by Her Man. ~grins at Bolt~
Errand Knight~~~ thinks Wwe have a fundamental problem if Wwe see gor existing in other places poolside
desiree{Algernon}~~~ this did not happen in another room Master Knight....it happened in this room...
Lemuel~~~ ~winks at Mandi~
deka{Jake}~~~ thank You Master Lemuel
~soft smile~
jasma{GS~FG}~~~ with respect.. on the page
http://goreanshores.50megs.com/freewomen.html
it states..
Free Women are not permitted to lap any man while in the tavern. Lapping will constitute inappropriate behavior which may subject the Woman to a force-collaring.
with respect.. it does say *any* man
Bolt Sarakai~~~ ~Tossing a grin to Mandi~
Aye lady...Some FW, bold FW, do not wear veils. I myself permit Phen to enter the Tavern without them, yet in Ar or other of the high cities? She is veiled. It is all a matter of place in my opinion.
Kayla~~~ well By the priest Kings if Gornt got a Bee up His helment and threw Me unto His lap there would be a fight in the pit but the lapping would still happen and I just never thought of the role play that way... just kinda shocks Me ~blushing~...
Mandi~~~ ~~looking to Errand Knight~~ Aye, My Friend, that is a disturbing thought, but I have seen a slave punished for being in DM instead of here. And that was a frightening sight.
fallen~angel~~~ imagine what life on Gor would be WITHOUT FW.......slaves can only do so much....only 2-3% of women in Gor are actually slaves. FW must have roles that slaves can't fulfull....
Mandi~~~ I do not believe that We can be punished for the unilateral actions of Another, Kayla. But, then, again, Gor is unfair. So all bets are off.
It would not be a very effective means of recruiting new members, though.
Bolt Sarakai~~~ Well if anyone see's the next time I throw Phen on my lap and has a problem with it and deems inappropiate, then let either Me know, or the Council. Then C&P it and send it in. It will be dealt with ~laughs~ Either way.
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding to fa~ Aye, FW bear the children of FM. According to the books only 1 in 40 were slaves.
Mandi~~~ ~~smiles @ fa~~ Many believe that it stretches the bounds of reason to allow Us in this Tavern, yet there is no Piazza or other respectable place to be, unless We create little private rooms and segregate Ourselves.
Lemuel~~~ ~nods~ Aye Bolt, and there is a difference between a FW being dragged onto a Man's lap and one sitting down seductively of her own will
vika{Marius}~~~ ~vika giggles softly....listening to Master Bolt Sarakai....She is Woman...and would have to do as MAN says.....technically....*laughs to herself*~
Lemuel~~~ ~looks to Mandi~ There *IS* mention in the books of certain paga taverns where FW and families might go.
fallen~angel~~~ life without FW in the Tavern would be boring, who would Masters have to taunt? *grinning and winking at Mistress Mandi*
Molly~~~ Lemuel so if a FW did sit on a lap is that wrong?
Mandi~~~ Aye, very true, Lemuel, but just because it is in the books somehwere does not mean that All believe it, or care, if it does not suit Them.
fallen~angel~~~ Master Bolt....You describe Mistress Phen as Your Woman and she is to do as You say.....how does that not make her a slave really? (no disrespect just curious)
Mandi~~~ ~~casts a glance over to fa~~
Bolt Sarakai~~~ ~Winks to vika~
The Woman has no choice, in some things, as she is only free because I see fit to allow it.
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding to Molly~ Aye, according to the protocols a FW may not lap. If she sets her butt down in a Man's lap and wiggles it about, that is acting slave-like.
Molly~~~ I love being a FW....I wish to learn alot
fallen~angel~~~ fa thinks the life of a FW must be very hard...how does she attract a FM without being a little provacative?
vika{Marius}~~~ ~*thinking* a Female...or female....needs to know within Her what She is......now....if a FW desires to lap, not being ordered to do so by Master Bolt Sarakai...*grins* she is spreading her lil legs beneath those Robes of Concelament...and plopping down on a chaq....and to vika that says slave....*quietly*~
Kayla~~~ Lemuel?.... In Port Kar?
Rollo the Ax~~~ Folks... We seem to have a couple of differing * ideas * here, or points of view........ The GS home page has MOST of the rules there in black and white, for ALL to see... if there are * grey areas * or actions that may or may NOT be covered, then they are dealt with on a case by case matter.... But to * MY * mind, Rules, are rules... and if it says that this or that is wrong, Rank don't mean diddly... a Captain, myself included, is NOT above ANY rule or law of GS.... nor is the lowest slave.... Laws ONLY work when they are equal and fair for ALL !!!!!!!!!!
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding to Mandi~ True...and as this tavern is in Port Kar it isn't likely it would be one of those that allowed FW if we were to go strictly by the books. But online Gor requires some compromises. ~G~
Molly~~~ Hmmmm does that also apply if it's with her Man? or just sitting and wiggling on anyones lap?
calia{GS}~~~ *~ offering softly~* in the books it was mentioned often FW are allowed as Free obviously,only because the Masters allow it....
~shrugging smile to fa~*
vika{Marius}~~~ ~Very true, Master Bolt Sarakai...and Mistress/slave would do well to remember just that...*laughs*~
Bolt Sarakai~~~ The whole concept of Gor fa, is that women in the majority, obey men. It is us men that permit and allow women to remain free. And no disrespect taken girl ~grins~
Mandi~~~ vika, a girl may have an opinion, but it is not the definitive one.
fallen~angel~~~ in addition to fa's question to Master Sarkai...
"Some Goreans think of the Free Companionship as being a form of contract slavery."
(Blood Brothers of Gor, p.246)
Is that how You see it Master?
Lemuel~~~ ~shrugging~ It never explicitely says there isn't a paga tavern of that type in Port Kar, but I doubt there would be one. ~G~
fallen~angel~~~ *grins at Master Sarakai* no need to answer that question Master, fa just saw Your response.
vika{Marius}~~~ ~Lapping Man period...vika would think....but He is not YOUR Man....YOU in fact would be HIS Woman...*grins* A FW does not wiggle around.....*softly* that vika knows anywho...in the Tavern publically....~
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding~ Aye, IMO it does Molly. If a FW acts overtly sexual in public, even with her Man, that is slave-like behavior.
Molly~~~ So basically your saying if a FW shows open affection she can be kolared or face stripped? So only the Master or Man can show affection, also how do you show him/her that your enjoying his/her affection if your to keep your passion to yourself?
vika{Marius}~~~ ~Did not say it was, Mistress Mandi...but this is a Forum...and it was vika's understanding that ALL things could be discussed....*softly*~
Kovak Broadbelt~~~ there All was talk of "well it was done in the Books,Scroll however you wish to to call them" I know the books are the core outline of Gor But are they looked at as history or like looking in the rule book like hey that a fool
deka{Jake}~~~ ~listens quietly giving vika a lil wink~
Bolt Sarakai~~~ And there would be a difference in how a FW would lap, just as in how she serves don't you think? When I say lap Phen is generally sitting, legs closed, across my legs, my arm around her to support her...Can you picture that? There is a big difference in how slaves and FW do things, right across the board.
fallen~angel~~~ exactly Mistress Molly, that is waht fa asked in one of her many *grins* questions....how does a FW show Her affection to a Man safely?
Rollo the Ax~~~ Again, folks,... GS is only one of many Gorean sites on-line... and EACH site makes their own laws and rules... other places may allow this or that, or NOT allow certain things that GS does... that is just life folks... The Council HERE sets the rules... and they only apply for HERE... but they apply for EVERYBODY here.... So, Bolt... to be fair and just, Phen would have to wear at LEAST, 1 thin vail to stay within GS rules...
vika{Marius}~~~ ~vika's reads Master Lemuel's post....*nods* vika kneels beside her Master's curule chair...with no further comments....~
Mandi~~~ Molly, that is a grey area, and it is best not done at all until One is comfortable enough to know the personalities One is around. Actually, there are great shows of affection, but they tend to be very low-key, subtle, and non-sexual in nature. There is a difference between the warmth between Friends and the more heated relationships between the slaves and the Men.
calia{GS}~~~ *~ a sweeping gaze between Master Lemuel,and then vika...~* smiling to her,with agree....
fallen~angel~~~ whereas a slave would lap in a totally different manner, boldly offering herself to the Master, enticing Him with suggestive wiggles and how she sits.
deka{Jake}~~~ ~nods agreeing with Master Lemuel~
Lemuel~~~ Molly, Gor is not like Earth. FW on Gor would be scandalized to be held or kissed in public. They would protest and resist such attentions to maintain their dignity.
Bolt Sarakai~~~ ~Nods to Rollo~
Well she ain't worn a veil for almost 4 years in GS, perhaps it's time we looked at a few of the rules eh? But in saying that no one has ever had a problem with it as well, that I can remember anyway.
Mandi~~~ I see that We may have some New FW coming into GS, and would be glad to post some sample posts as to how to write in veils and robes and so forth if that would be helpful.
Bolt, it matters not to Me how Phen is dressed, as the Lady has a lot of style.
Molly~~~ ~chuckles lightly~ so in other words the slaves have more freedom to show affection than the FW or wife? I'm confused, so is it that FW and wives are considered just to be "holy like"?? not being disrespectful in my comments I just find it hard to understand how a slave can get more affection.
Lemuel~~~ About the most affection I can recall a FW showing in public in the books is a touch on the arm of a Man.
fallen~angel~~~ *grins and nods with Mistress Mandi*
Mistress Phen could wear a bag and still look good.
Mandi~~~ ~~Lemuel, I guess I had assumed that the unilateral action of Another could not bring disgrace upon a FW, just that She must not react to it with heat or need.
Kayla~~~ Protocals says FW don't lap... and wear veils... I have been unaware that Captains' Women and Advisors gets special priviledges ... should relax more I guess I always thought I had to hold to a higher standing because of Shadowglade's position muchles Mine...
Bolt Sarakai~~~ Indeed Mandi, she roleplays her character very well, and now that she is of the Caste of Warriors ~laughs~ She is even bolder!
deka{Jake}~~~ ~didn't know gor had wives~
Mandi~~~ Aye, Molly.
Molly~~~ So FW have priviledges?
vika{Marius}~~~ ~A slave is a slut....and the fact is....for the most part...the Master enjoys using His slut....the FC or FW is as a wife...to bear children and please Him at home...the thing here is.....it is up to the Master who, how and when....whether it be FW or slut....He is Man...and is absolute in power....that is why vika said...make sure if You desire to be Free or slave.....and then be that to the best of Your ability....~
Lemuel~~~ ~nods~ Aye Molly, FW are put on a pedestal, slaves are put at One's feet. ~G~ It is not really so hard to understand if one is familiar with medievil Europe. Marriages were to seal alliances, mistresses were for fun. The same is true of Free Companions and slaves.
Rollo the Ax~~~ Now, as for lapping ???? Again, to * MY * mind... If some guy just grabbed a FW as she walked by, and pulled her into his lap, then the FW has done nothing wrong, and if she gets out of His grasp in a reasonable time, has done her FW duty..... If she climbs into the lap on her own ?? she has done a wrong thing.... FW and FM can still show accepted levels of affection within the tavern... hold hands, sit close, kiss... etc. .... but a * proper FW would NOT get groped or * make out * in the open.....
Kayla~~~ not wearing a kolar is a priviledge
Mandi~~~ Explaining a little to Molly, but the Free Companionship contracts only generally are for one year at a time unless renewed, expire, and here in Port Kar, they are not recognized by the community. (I suppose The Ones a FC contract matters to are the parties anyway.) Marriage as such does not exist on Gor.
vika{Marius}~~~ ~Wearing one is an honor...*whispering*~
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding to Mandi~ Exactly! If I pulled You onto My lap and tried to fondle You and You screamed and fought, how could that possibly be used against You? Now if You melted in My embrace and responded...~G~
Bolt Sarakai~~~ Special priviledges Kayla? We were doing these things long before I became a Captain, and in fact, you ever made it to GS...Does that make it right? I guess not, but what is the point these rules are trying to make and why were they introduced? Now that it has come up The Council will be talking about them and I will be seeking slight...adjustments.
fallen~angel~~~ whereas a slave would say wearing a collar is a priviledge
calia{GS}~~~ an honor to wear her collar ~touching at calias' tavern steel~ ...~softly~
Kayla~~~ We live that is a great kindness in itself *S*
Kayla~~~ Wow GS is kinda like the Muslim world or middle eastern relationships The wives stay home have babies take care of home they only leave with The Husband, but the husband can do as he pleases with other women even have children out of wedlock and have the wife take care of them but yet shes the special one ~S~ well do The Captains make their own rules at all?
Molly~~~ Molly, by way of additional explanation, much of what You may encounter here that seems unfair and harsh is actually sort of an introduction and a series of examples to help the Newbies along.
Rollo the Ax~~~ Bolt, it is more likely that everyone just assumed that Phen was playing by the rules... the vails were perhaps a * given *, they assumed she was wearing them but just didn't describe them... she has * slipped * by ... but she should be wearing them... like a said, rules IS rules...
fallen~angel~~~ and children is another point all together....
Kayla~~~ Shouldn't they come up in Council Captain before the adjustments are made?.... Can I make some adjustments and then Bring them up? or CD or Marius or Lemuel or Shadowglade?.... The wagon is running away with bosk in tow ~grinning~... Just alittle confused here or thought I missed something in emails????
Mandi~~~ ~~chuckles at Lemuel~~ My best line of defense against that, in the words of a great Warrior is "hit the Leave button."
Lemuel~~~ Free Men on Gor don't sire children on slaves, Molly. That's what slave wine is for.
vika{Marius}~~~ ~Thank GAWD, vika cannot have children...Thank You Mistress Kayla for that 'most' yucccckie slave wine...*winks*~
Bolt Sarakai~~~ Bah bullocks ~laughs~ But I hear what you say Rollo...Till the rule is modified, she will wear a veil.
marissa{HoS}~~~ ::shudders as she hears the dreaded words::
Errand Knight~~~ Lemuel: disagree Friend ..there are breeder slaves on gor
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding at the Senior Captain's words~ Aye, I always assume that a FW is veiled unless She says otherwise.
Molly~~~ So if FW companionships aren't recognized why do they exist and I read you can take a wife in GS maybe I miss read it
Mandi~~~ *smiles* And I assume All to be properly attired unless stated otherwise, though the converse might make Us more descriptive.
fallen~angel~~~ Port Kar is the only land on Gor where FC is not recognised Mistress Molly.
topaz~~~ *ugh to the taste of slave wine, but grateful it exists...grinning at vika, winks*
Molly~~~ ~grins~ well I annouced I was wearing veils as I entered ~S~
Lemuel~~~ ~shaking My head~ Yes there are breeder slaves, but they are used for breedin with male slaves, not Free Men, E.K.
The only instance that a FM fathered a child on a slave in the books is Hup with sura to produce Scormus of Ar and that was a joke by Cernus.
Mandi~~~ Molly, People are Free to make Their choices. Free Companionships exist on Gor, but are not recognized officially in Port Kar, according to the scrolls, works by John Norman. Many things exist which are not "recognized."
Rollo the Ax~~~ Molly, the concept of the FW being held to a * higher * standard than a slave is NOT like the teachings of Islam... Greek and Roman society were much the same... In public, a woman or wife is expected to * look respectable *... yet when in the bedroom, she is still allowed to be a slut...
Kovak Broadbelt~~~ Port Kar for the long was the only City without a Homestone untile Bosk made one
Gornt~~~ In Rome Rollo they were all sluts
Bolt Sarakai~~~ You sure did miss something Kayla ~laughs~ But then again if we are looking at protocols, aren't all FW expected, required to come to the tavern with guardsmen? And since this is a forum to discuss GS and how she runs, then this is a perfect time to bring such issues to everyones attention. Rules don't last forever, they need to be modified and changed to deal with changing circumstances...Otherwise we would still burn women at the stake.
calia{GS}~~~ *~calia leans some closer,whispering softly toward Mistress Mandi~* ..and the attire ,so beautiful ...
calia was reading of Talena's garments in Tarnsmen today...such grace beauty, and intriqicity in dressing Her,calia imagines...
Molly~~~ Okay so then how does one have a family im Gor how to procreate?
Errand Knight~~~ Lemuel: aye ...and I have also owned a breeder in GS ...the sale agreed by the Captains
topaz~~~ *shivers against Master EK's leg, hearing Master Bolt mention the "burning times"*
Lemuel~~~ No, I don't believe that FW are *required* to have a guard with them Captain. It is more of a bit of advise to new FW so that they are more safe in the tavern.
Mandi~~~ I will admit that I have had to struggle with that guardsman rule, as I do not post NRC's around, as I can barely keep track of Myself, and I have no official on-site Protector, though I have Friends Who would defend Me if push comes to shove. Is My existence illogical and contra the rules?
Molly~~~ laffs hard....Rollo that was my next question LOL!
Kayla~~~ I am the first one to agree Bolt but you get the rule changed before putting into effect and putting it out there into an open forum as a law when Our rules clearly state something else... ~shrugs~ just need to do it the right way Captain so nothing slips through the crack and Your Woman is not face stripped by a rule that is valid on the books
Lemuel~~~ Molly a family is usually arranged through companionship in most cities on Gor. In Port Kar, Men just take a FW as their own and get busy. ~G~
Mandi~~~ Molly, We lived hundreds of years due to amazing medical technology and stabilization serum and have less need than People of Earth to reproduce for replacements every twenty or so years.
Molly~~~ I guess I'll understand more but basically does the Captain have a say in how he treats and gets treated by his FW.
fallen~angel~~~ a vital function of the free women of Gor is to reproduce, to provide children to give longevity to their family and Caste. The child of a slave is most often legally considered a slave. Few free men will thus have children with their slaves. That is considered a privilege of free women. In general, it is free women who care for and teach the children in their crucial beginning years of development. Slaves are not permitted to teach free people so they could not teach even children. Slaves are limited to lesser roles with children, more a playmate than much else. Children will learn a lot from their free mothers so it is the obligation of their mothers to ensure they learn the proper information. It is likely they are the ones that begin to teach children about the Caste Codes, their proper modes of behavior.
Mandi~~~ ~~chuckles @ fa as the girl and I are both correct, though it would appear the posts conflict~~
Lemuel~~~ Free Women are expected to travel with guards, consisting of either Captains or patrons of the tavern. Any Free Woman under the protection of a Captain of Gorean Shores is the responsibility of that Captain. Any Free Woman under the protection of a patron of the tavern is the responsibility of the patron. The guard should ensure that his charge acts and dresses appropriately.
Molly~~~ Lemuel: that what's written not always true right? I find my FC to be very rewarding and not a sexual thing Hes very smart, patient and He shows me respect he's very stern when it come to GS but over all I've not been treated as a "get busy"~S~
Mandi~~~ That answers it, Lemuel.
Rollo the Ax~~~ LOL...LOL.. perhaps, Gornt... but I think that the vestal virgins in the temple of Athena or many others were not ... or at least meant to not be... never say ALL or never, I was taught...LOL...LOL.. cause somebody or something will always come and bite y'all in the ass.... LOL.
Bolt Sarakai~~~ Ok Kayla you have had you fun at Phen's expense. Now go and get veils for your icon. As I have said this will go to the Council.
fallen~angel~~~ ~*grins at Mistress Mandi*~ well John Norman often contradicts Himself.....
marissa{HoS}~~~ ::immediately stiffens and draws her body upright::
Molly~~~ reading fa's words...I believe I just said that about middle eastern relationships, but how can one feel priviledges raising babys bore by her Mans' slave and is it fair to the child?
Bolt Sarakai~~~ I have to go. Interesting questions posed. Lets continue the other topic brought up, next week. I have some new ideas to add.
Be well all
Lemuel~~~ ~chuckles~ Just an expression, Molly. A Free Man is more likely to *get busy* with a slave, but if He wants offspring He'd better attend to His Woman now and then. ~G~
marissa{HoS}~~~ Mistress Molly. slaves do not bear their Masters children.
Gornt~~~ in the South they had the right idea, make more slaves
Molly~~~ sits back..hearing Bolts' words
fallen~angel~~~ *shrugs* fa is not sure Mistress Molly, She was never in that position as a FW however, one can feel a privilege in teaching a child and moulding a child into the adult they will become.
Rollo the Ax~~~ Folks... Yes, rules CAN change... hell, we can make a rule that everybody has to stick a feather up the butt before entering GS, if we want to.... then we would have to enforce it also.... NOTHING is FOREVER... rules, laws, opinions... all can change or be changed.... My concern is that some things are the foundation that a home is built on... GREAT care needs to be taken before removing any part of a foundation, so that the whole house doesn't fall down around your ears.....????????
Molly~~~ oooooh okay...thank you Lemuel
Kayla~~~ After Moonglow's icon I think Mine is rather calm Captain *S* It won't send anyOne into heart attacks...LOL and I meant no direaspect to You or Your Lady For I respect You Both and would love to be rid of the veils Myself and You will have My support *S*
Molly~~~ True fa, but I guess is the moral thing that comes to play but overall Women in general are nobodys in Gor it seems to me not individual but over all there non existant.
Rollo the Ax~~~ Well folks.... it is time to call this weeks forum to a close.... Thanks to everyone for coming and taking part....
Rollo the Ax~~~ LOL...LOL..well folks... have fun, and I look forward to seeing everybody again next week... same Gor time, same Gor channel....LOL..