Present:
Sandman
Dak
Keeper
Lita
snowrose
maddie-anne
ruby
kahleesi
flicka
Dak 19:43:48 pm CDT
if any has a topic whisper to Me and I will open the Forum !
Keeper of flicka 19:44:53 pm CDT
Yes kahleesi, a slight technical hitch brought about by the medical condition know as FFS. (Fat Finger Syndrome.)
All fixed now.
Lita, Physician 19:44:57 pm CDT
Well, I have one, but it's on a topic we discussed fairly recently, though from a slightly different angle, so I don't know whether You All will want to discuss it again.
OriginalSandman_Builder/ Sr. Captain of GS 19:46:53 pm CDT
smiling and nodding to all who have greeted.
as for me I am tired having travelled 700 or so pasangs by tharlarion,, but safely in the Inn for the night
Dak 19:52:34 pm CDT
any topics, tonite?
Dak 19:56:38 pm CDT
I have a opic, I will ope nthe Forum, samerules, keep greetings and chit chat to whispers for the benefit of the scribe, hopes the scribe is ready
1st topic, what is the role of a Free Woman on Gor ?
ruby~{Randolph} 19:58:02 pm CDT
the role of a FW..to have children..carry on the name
kahleesi-{Dak}- chain of issi 19:58:53 pm CDT
dont know about carrying on a name as much as repopulating the planet
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 20:00:24 pm CDT
carry on a line, rather than a name. Though that doesn't seem to be as important on Gor...but certainly to bear children,
Lita, Physician 20:03:24 pm CDT
kaleesi, carrying on the name was of more concern that re-populating the planet. Goreans concerns weren't usually planet-wided.
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 20:04:13 pm CDT
snow had it the opposite in her mind Thank You Mistress
Lita, Physician 20:04:23 pm CDT
Ubar Luther has spoken quite well on the role of a Free Woman on Gor. I will let Him speak for me.
Lita, Physician 20:04:41 pm CDT
The proper role of free women in Gorean society is one of the most misunderstood aspects of Gor. This misunderstanding is perpetuated by several factors. First, the rhetoric in much of the books states that all women should be slaves. Second, a cursory reading of the novels shows that basically all of the major free women characters, who are often haughty, end up as slaves. Third, there is a popular myth that male dominance is absolute on Gor. These three matters combine to skew one's view of free women on Gor. It is only through a deeper study of the novels do you better understand the actual complexity of the role of free women on Gor. They are far more than just potential slaves.
The vast majority of the women on Gor are free women. Only 2 to 3% of all the women on Gor are actually slaves. That statistic alone speaks volumes about the place of free women in Gorean society. Despite all the rhetoric, Goreans do not follow through on those platitudes and enslave most of their women. They do not even enslave a significant portion of their women. There must be some compelling reasons to support this stance. Free women must be able to fulfill important roles that slaves cannot. The need for those roles must supersede the need for slaves. This scroll will address the many different facets of free women on Gor, helping people to better comprehend their proper place on Gor.
Keeper of flicka 20:04:50 pm CDT
Gorean Society is a little bit like the Ancient Urth society called Sparta. A warrior race that has strict rules on who can breed. If the genetic pool is not large enough Gor will suffer the same fate as Sparta and breed itself out of existence. The odd Voyage of Acquisition helps, but breeding is important. Thus one of the primary roles of Free Women is to make little Goreans. Although Knee-High-Goreans do not rate much of a mention in the book.
maddie~anne{GS} 20:05:25 pm CDT
well...there are many roles this one has read that a FW fulfills, with respect...from bearing children that are Free, to healing ~smiles at Mistress~...to many other things...it seems impossible to corner a FW's role into a small corner when the books along have proven Free Women to have taken many different roles...although the strength of a Free Woman, much different then the strength of a slave, is indisbutable (sp)
Lita, Physician 20:05:27 pm CDT
Free women on Gor fulfill a number of different roles, roles that essentially cannot be filled by kajirae. These are important roles, ones that contribute significantly to the effective functioning of Gorean society. These roles include positions of power, Caste membership, Free Companions and mothers. These roles are far more important than the role of a slave. Slaves, in general, contribute little to the operation of Gorean society. Though there are work slaves, the primary purpose of the majority of slaves is for the pleasure of men, a type of luxury. A city could exist without slaves but not without free women.
Lita, Physician 20:06:14 pm CDT
Positions of Power
In general, Gorean do not prefer to place women in positions of power. "Women, �, seldom release the following instinct in men. Men, accordingly, do not on the whole, care to follow them. In doing so they generally feel uncomfortable. It makes them uneasy. They sense the absurdity, the unnaturalness, of the relationship. It is thus that normal men commonly follow women only unwillingly, and only with reservations, usually also only within an artificial context or within the confines of a misguided, choiceless or naïve institution, where their discipline may be relied upon. Their compliance with orders in such a situation cannot help but be more critical, more skeptical. Their activities tend then to be performed with less confidence, and more hesitantly. This often produces serious consequences to the efficiency of their actions. It is interesting to note that even women seldom care to follow women, particularly in critical situations. The male, biologically, for better or for worse, appears to be the natural leader. In the perversion of nature, of course, anything may occur." (Players of Gor, p.288) But, this is a generality for which there are a number of exceptions. A free woman of superior ability can achieve much, including ruling a city. That is fully supported by the philosophies of Gor.
Women have ruled on Gor as Ubara and Tatrix. Tharna was led by a female Tatrix until she chose to step down. A Ubara is a female ruler of the Warrior Caste. She may rule as the Free Companion of a Ubar or on her own. As the Free Companion of a Ubar, a Ubara possesses great power, second only to the Ubar. There is nearly nothing she cannot accomplish with her power. A Ubara, with no Ubar, can rule on her own if the city supports her. Talena was made the sole Ubara of Ar when Marlenus was thought dead and the Regent had been deposed. She would thus possess ultimate power within Ar. A Tatrix is similar to a civil Ubara. It is a female dictator who does not belong to the Warrior Caste. She remains in power only through the support of the people though she was not elected into her position. Tharna, Port Olni and Corcyrus were all ruled at one time by a Tatrix.
If a woman can attain the highest position in a city, its ruler, then there is no logical reason why a woman could not fill other positions of leadership within a city such as a member of the High Council of Castes or Caste Leader. There are no specific prohibitions in the books that prevent free women from attaining such positions. It simply takes a woman of superior ability to be found worthy of such a position. On Gor, it may be rare but it is definitely within the realm of possibility.
Women may also possess power in other ways. They may own and operate their own Houses, often Merchant Houses. Their business skills and wealth allow them to possess various degrees of power. There are a number of examples in the books of women who own Houses by themselves and wield power through their wealth and status. There are no laws prohibiting their ownership of property or real estate. It is often said that Merchants are power brokers within many cities. Female merchants enter into that equation as well as men
Dak 20:06:15 pm CDT
the role of the Free woman was to beat more Free regardless of name !
Lita, Physician 20:07:50 pm CDT
But a vital function of the free women of Gor is to reproduce, to provide children to give longevity to their family and Caste. The child of a slave is most often legally considered a slave. Few free men will thus have children with their slaves. That is considered a privilege of free women. In general, it is free women who care for and teach the children in their crucial beginning years of development. Slaves are not permitted to teach free people so they could not teach even children. Slaves are limited to lesser roles with children, more a playmate than much else. Children will thus learn a lot from their free mothers so it is the obligation of their mothers to ensure they learn the proper information. It is likely they are the ones that begin to teach children about the Caste Codes, their proper modes of behavior.
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:09:16 pm CDT
may flicka digress a little, recently she was reading about breeding slaves, and has a rather long quote from Savages of Gor which she is willing to share if the Moderator agrees.
Keeper of flicka 20:09:38 pm CDT
How do W/we know there are only 2 or 3 % of the population that are slaves?
When ever I see a numerical statistic I am reminded of a quote:
"87.41% of all statistics are incorrect. I don't know if that is true but the.41 makes it sound that way!"
maddie~anne{GS} 20:11:16 pm CDT
~nods at Jarl's words and whispers~ 99.9% of statistics can be bent to support the cause of the author's desires...with respect...
Lita, Physician 20:12:16 pm CDT
maddie-anne, there were only 3 castes Free Women could not belong to: Initiates, Players, and Assassins.
maddie~anne{GS} 20:13:03 pm CDT
aye, Mistress, this one thanks You for educating her ~smiles warmly~
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 20:13:03 pm CDT
snow read recently that 78% of statistics are made up on the spot.
~whispers~ she made that up.
Lita, Physician 20:13:23 pm CDT
Jarl I believe the books state that per-centage. I do not have the quote handy, but I seem to recall it being in the books.
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:13:42 pm CDT
~chokes with laughter at mistress snowrose's comment~ oh touche mistress, touche!
ruby~{Randolph} 20:14:20 pm CDT
lol @ mistress
maddie~anne{GS} 20:14:37 pm CDT
~stiffles a lil giggle at mistress snowrose as she peeks around the room~
Keeper of flicka 20:16:52 pm CDT
You are incorrect snowrose! It is 87.41!
Besides the numbers, the writing from a certain perspective can create a bias in understanding.
This is the case with JN's books.
The same thing happens on Urth.
White adult males make up less that 20% of Urth's population.
However if you read their History books, most of History is about Stupid White Men and their mistakes, not the rest of the population.
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:17:08 pm CDT
With deep apologies Mistress Lita, but to flicka's mind, in online Gor Free Women are of very little import or interest, Yourself exempted. ~cheeky grin~. To this end it matters little whether slaves make up 2 or 3 or 90% of the Gorean population in the books. For within the hallowed halls of Gorean Shores, they most assuredly make up the vaste majority of the female players.
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 20:17:33 pm CDT
~stifling a laugh~ she kneels corrected Jarl Keeper
kahleesi-{Dak}- chain of issi 20:18:49 pm CDT
laffs @ Jarl Keepers quotes...aye so true Jarl!
kahleesi-{Dak}- chain of issi 20:20:04 pm CDT
its no wonder why that is flicka...winks
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:21:14 pm CDT
~eyes opening wide in feigned innocence~
why would you think it is kahleesi?
Keeper of flicka 20:22:11 pm CDT
flicka, I have not seen the quote about Breeding Slaves?
Is it new?
That is new to your computer?
Lita, Physician 20:23:26 pm CDT
You have a point there, flicka. However, when speaking of Gor, I always go by the books. The fact that on-line Gor deviates from them is sometimes necessary for various reasons, but I feel that we should stick to them as closely as possible. Particularly regarding the respect and treatment given to Free Women in the books.
kahleesi-{Dak}- chain of issi 20:23:28 pm CDT
blushes profusely ...shrugging her shoulders
Lita, Physician 20:24:57 pm CDT Again from Ubar Luther:
Treatment of Free Women Free women are commonly treated with respect, courtesy and honor, especially free women of high station or Caste. Free women on Gor would be considered to possess a greater status than a typical Earth women. Free women, especially those of high station, are often referred to as "Lady." On the other hand, men are not referred to as "Lord" in the books. Free women may often say what they wish, without anyone's permission, and many men will listen to what they have to say. Part of the key is that those free men and women who share a Home Stone have much in common. Thus, they are more apt to listen to the thoughts and feelings of one another. Free women may often be bold, within certain limits. "A free woman is inordinately precious. She is a thousand times, and more, above a mere slave." (Players of Gor, p.92) "For example, there is no higher person, nor one more respected, than the Gorean free woman." (Hunters of Gor, p.311) Free women are rarely raped unless it is leading to their direct enslavement. Even a Slaver who enslaves a free woman will treat her with courtesy until she has been branded.
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:25:06 pm CDT
Mistress Lita, in that flicka agrees with You, Free Women should be afforded the same respect as Free Men, until that is ~evil little chuckle~ they cease to be Free Women, and then it is retribution time if they have been particularly nasty.
OriginalSandman_Builder/ Sr. Captain of GS 20:26:04 pm CDT
smiling to Lita's comment I have always found far more slaves then FW in online Gor,, but a FW online,, shouldn't just be treated as a future slave,, but a rare and valuable member of the online Gorean community
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:26:32 pm CDT
Jarl, flicka will show it to You later if You wish, but in precis, it was indicating that slaves are bred far more frequently than is generally supposed. And with well documented bloodlines.
Kazar~infamous pirate 20:27:04 pm CDT
flicka has a nasty streak grins
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 20:28:23 pm CDT
did she read somewhere in the books that sometimes a Master will free His slave temporarily, just to breed with her
Lita, Physician 20:28:36 pm CDT
That might explain why the Men put up with so much from Boabissia in Mercenaries before they finally enslaved her
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:30:01 pm CDT
mistress snowrose, flicka has not seen that, but defers to the greater book readers. Mistress Lita have You heard of this?
Keeper of flicka 20:30:11 pm CDT
You are correct Lita about the "Lord" bit.
However the word Jarl comes from an Urthen Scandinavian Language, it means "Earl" which would rank Me above a mere "Lord"
Keeper of flicka 20:31:00 pm CDT
~Chuckling~
Lita, Physician 20:31:31 pm CDT
I aagree, Jarl. And have no problem with that in Your title. Just that Ubar Luther happened to mention that and I found it interesting as to why.
ruby~{Randolph} 20:31:47 pm CDT
Boabissia..is now slave..and will pay handsomely to her cruelty to slaves
Lita, Physician 20:32:56 pm CDT
and flicka, could I have a copy of the quote on breeding with slave you mentioned?
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:33:17 pm CDT
~whispers in shock~
Jarl You told flicka it meant "Oh Great Mighty One Who must be Implicitly Obeyed on Pain of Unnatural Punishment".
Oh wait, that You can do whether Jarl means Lord or Earl or King High Muckety Muck.
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:34:08 pm CDT
Certainly Mistress, flicka will mail it to You.
Lita, Physician 20:34:22 pm CDT
sorry, snowrose. *chuckle* And flicka I do seem to recall reading somewhere that such breeding occasionally happened, but I had the impression it wqas pretty rare.
Dak 20:36:34 pm CDT
it happened in GS years ago with one Master and His slave
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 20:36:39 pm CDT
yes Mistress snowrose thought that too
Keeper of flicka 20:36:46 pm CDT
It all gets back to breeding.
If you have a warrior race running around and hacking each other into bit-size-chunks on a regular basis, you need a fair amount of breeding stock to replace those who were not-so-gifted at the sword hacking thing and got themselves sliced and diced. We could accept that Free Women were fairly numerous on that basis, but like Stupid White Males in Urthen history the submission, whipping, furring, comings and goings of slaves appears to be far more interesting than domestic bliss on Gor.
Lita, Physician 20:37:11 pm CDT
And thank You, Captain Sandman, for Your support. *S*
Keeper of flicka 20:38:29 pm CDT
For you flicka;
Jarl, Earl and Great Mighty One Who must be Implicitly Obeyed on Pain of Unnatural Punishment are interchangeable. Remember that.
Dak 20:39:25 pm CDT
aye, in the books you here much more about slaves, and if you hear much about a Free Woman she usually ends up a slave, *smiles*
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:39:30 pm CDT
flicka thinks that Free Women have a role to play in online Gor, they are an integral part of Gor, they make for a rounded society.
In flicka's mind they also serve an additional purpose, they keep we slaves on our toes inasmuch it is far more difficult to "sweet talk" a Mistress. It makes for a far more inventive serve, in order to please a Mistress and show due respect when serving. A Mistress introduces another aspect of female sexuality, albeit a far more subtle form.
OriginalSandman_Builder/ Sr. Captain of GS 20:39:34 pm CDT
grins at Lita,, even tho they tend to be a bit prickly at times,, the place wouldn't be the same without a FW or two around
Lita, Physician 20:40:33 pm CDT
Jarl Keeper, there is also the fact to figure in that as male children were preferred by the men over females, Free Women could and often did sell their female children to be slaves. One way to obtain money for themselves.
maddie~anne{GS} 20:41:12 pm CDT
~blinks at the words sent from Jarl Keeper to His flickering flicka as she shifts upon heels in her now clear understanding of her lack of knowledge on this topic~
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:45:29 pm CDT
Yes Jarl. ~looking with abject fear at the tarn feather~
Keeper of flicka 20:46:02 pm CDT
In many societies the boy-child is preferred Lita, I always thought that was an interesting type of gross stupidity. I think that someone needs to explain to the societies that you need the girl-children to grow up strong and healthy so they can produce the desired boy-children.
A lack of forward planning on a monumental scale.
Ramses 20:47:17 pm CDT
agrees with Keeper
but then I usually do
*chuckles*
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:48:31 pm CDT
~little squeal of delight at the entrance of Master Ramses, blowing Him a sloppy, soft kiss from across the room~
Ramses 20:49:21 pm CDT
*chuckles and winks to flicka
Keeper of flicka 20:49:50 pm CDT
Umm.
I thought you should greet in PM to make it easier on the scribe.
No Wait.
You are the scribe flicka.
Have fun with the edit!
~Chuckling~
Dak 20:50:23 pm CDT
the boy child is preferred, generally to carry on the name, and quite often female births out perform males, and it seems for one reason or another male children seem less inclined to reach the age of majority !
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:50:59 pm CDT
~chuckling~ Jarl the greetings are the least of flicka's problems with editing, what causes more wrinkles to her brow is the fear of inadvertently leaving in a PM.
kahleesi-{Dak}- chain of issi 20:51:22 pm CDT
or maturity
ruby~{Randolph} 20:53:46 pm CDT
winks platfully to flicka
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 20:53:55 pm CDT
~nod agreement with flicka~
Keeper of flicka 20:54:05 pm CDT
I hear what you say Dak.
I always think that males tend not to reach their majority for to main reasons;
Adventurous Nature
and / or Gross Stupidity.
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:54:57 pm CDT
Master Dak, are You referring to male children on Gor or male children on Urth?
For if You are referring to Urth, flicka would suggest that You look to the figures of gender imbalance in many third world countries and China, where a one child policy of many years has caused a severe shortage of females of child bearing age.
OriginalSandman_Builder/ Sr. Captain of GS 20:55:10 pm CDT
chuckles the gene pool occasionally needs a bit of chlorine
Dak 20:55:32 pm CDT
aye, for sure a case of both, also the idea of being invincible, *smiles*
Dak 20:56:05 pm CDT
both, *smiles*
Keeper of flicka 20:57:56 pm CDT
~Turning to kahleesi.~
In most places Men reach their Majority at either 18 or 21.
It has been My experience that Men are normally mature by the time they reach 35!
If you haven't killed yourself by then, with a bit of luck and a good cardiologist most Men should make 60+!
kahleesi-{Dak}- chain of issi 21:01:44 pm CDT
laffs with Jarl Keeper...aye, thats usually the case
Dak 21:01:53 pm CDT
is there anymore to be said on this topic?
Keeper of flicka 21:03:05 pm CDT
I'm finished
OriginalSandman_Builder/ Sr. Captain of GS 21:03:19 pm CDT
nothing more here
Dak 21:03:23 pm CDT
anyone else ?
flicka-slave of Keeper 21:03:55 pm CDT
~shaking her head~
kahleesi-{Dak}- chain of issi 21:03:56 pm CDT
nope
ruby~{Randolph} 21:04:00 pm CDT
nothing more from this mere one..Master Dak
maddie~anne{GS} 21:04:27 pm CDT
~softly speaking~
nothing here, Master Dak...
Dak 21:04:36 pm CDT
I will call the Forum to a close, and than all for coming and participating in a lively forum,
thanks flicka for scribing !
flicka-slave of Keeper 21:05:00 pm CDT
Thank You Master Dak for moderating.
kahleesi-{Dak}- chain of issi 21:05:18 pm CDT
aye...happy editing sis...shivers at the thought
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 21:06:11 pm CDT
Thank You for leading this interesting and fun forum Master Dak
Thank you for scribing, pretty flicka
OriginalSandman_Builder/ Sr. Captain of GS 21:06:13 pm CDT
thank you for leading forum Dak and thank you for scribing flicka
maddie~anne{GS} 21:06:23 pm CDT
~singing softly out~ this one thanks You for leading, Master Dak, and she also thanks Jarl Keeper for allowing His lovely flickering flicka for scribing...~blowing kisses to the hot girl~
this slut hopes that All remain well...
ruby~{Randolph} 21:07:46 pm CDT
thank You Master Dak..for leading
pretty flicka..for scribing