Gorean Shores VS Other Taverns
Lemuel~~~ Well, let's get this forum started. Same rules as always...
Let's start with the topic that was posted to the board
"What features distinguish our paga tavern at Gorean Shores from other paga taverns or similar places on gor?"
Kayla~~~ well it is the best for starters *S*
Errand Knight~~~ well I think the first thing is physical ..like taverns of the north it is inside unlike many of the paga serving cafes of the south or the paga enclosures or the paga wagons of the namads
Mandi~~~ There is limited acceptance of Free Women within it, though We ought not push Our luck. **chuckling softly** Many paga Taverns would not make that accommodation.
Lemuel~~~ How about organization wise? How many other taverns are run by a Council rather than a single individual?
Errand Knight~~~ *smiles at Mandi*
true ...the majority of paga taverns in the books did not have FW present ..I'm unclear as to whether this was because they would not want to have been seen dead there or whether they were not welcome
Elektra~~~ Hmmm...I thought the absence of FW from paga taverns was more because they would have been totally scandalized by the dancing and cavorting going on there. *LOL* Also, their presence might inhibit the FM from having a good time.
Lemuel~~~ I think it was because of what goes on in most paga taverns, E.K. — most FW would be scandalized by the sexually charged atmosphere. There is mention of "family" oriented paga taverns in the books though...
Paedur of Culai~~~ Listens to the discussion.
Errand Knight~~~ in the books a common paga tavern is usually owned by its Proprietor..somewhat different from an UBar-like site owner in vt
Mandi~~~ "Family-oriented" paga tavern--sounds a little contradictory, but I just got to understanding the meaning of clans in some other places, and maybe it is not that strange.
This Tavern definitely is not "family-oriented." Nor would it really be a fit place for a Free Woman if We were actually on Gor.
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ also.. in the books.. usually there's someone to fill the containers and the girls just serve them.. also food.. one believes the plates were just placed on the tables without *offering* it up to the free..
~thinking more~
Errand Knight~~~ Lemuel: indeed there is mention of a number of family oriented taverns where Men bring their Fcs and personal slaves. It was of course unusual for personal slaves to enter and if they did they were normally chained near the entrance . They did not usually serve others within a paga tavern, Still ours like several in the books does not engage in the sort of extreme public behaviour as those which catered for the lower class men in the back alleys where the likely pageslut serving was a pot and kettle slave
Mandi~~~ girl is right, jas, but this establishment does it a little differently.
and We are quite proud of Our way of serving kalda, too.
Errand Knight~~~ haven't seen any evidence of Kaissa being played here or of tables with a Kaissa board inlaid ..still We have the prettiest and best trained slaves on gor
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ Even in Kajira of Gor, Tiffany Collins aka Tatrix Shiela, wished to go to a Paga Tavern, and Drusus Rencius took her to a Family Oriented Paga Tavern.. although there was alot of red-tape involved.. *s*
Errand Knight~~~ another thing which is common here and in some other places is serving furs ..I've yet to discover reference to them in a paga tavern in the books
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ but also along the same lines, Master Knight.. personal slaves also did serve their Owners in Taverns..
Errand Knight~~~ our slaves also wear their silks differently from those worn by slaves serving in paga taverns in other cities. I was very much surpised by this when I visited other places! and of course the clothing of the nomad slaves was a total puzzle to me when I had indulged in a few pagas
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ ~listening to Master Knight~
a girl believes that is because, when the girls were in the paga taverns, they were constantly busy with serving the customers and if not in a way of liquid refreshment, the girl was more than likely in the alcoves serving a customer in that way, or out drumming up business for the Proprietor of the Tavern.. the girls didn't *laze* about on *furs*
~smiling to Mistress Mandi~.. aye, Mistress
Lemuel~~~
"In most paga taverns," he said, "free women are not permitted. In some they are."
"I see," I said. To force an entry to such a place, I then understood, might necessitate an altercation, one perhaps ensuing in the exposure of my identity as the Tatrix. A common free woman, for example, might simply be forbidden to cross certain thresholds.
"Too," he said, "even if commanded, I could not knowingly lead you into danger, for example, into certain sections of the city at night. It is my duty to protect the Tatrix, not to place her in jeopardy."
"You are an excellent guard, Drusus," I said. "You are right, of course."
"I could take you to a tavern in which families are served," he said.
"It was not such a tavern I had in mind," I said.
"Oh," he said.
"Slaves can enter taverns, can they not?" I asked.
"If on an errand, or in the company of, a free person," he said.
"Kajira of Gor" page 122.
Errand Knight~~~ jasma: Im afraid Our tavern would be very boring if it were a typical paga tavern
Errand Knight~~~ I also have the impression that the drinks available here as well as the menu is more extensive than any tavern from the books would boast
kisSmet~~~ Most tavers do not offer blackwine either... it is too expensive for such establishment. The books say it is offered in only the finest of homes.
Lemuel~~~ ~nods~ Aye, You are probably right about that, E.K. The taverns in the books would serve food, but I doubt the variety would be as great. ~S~
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ ~smiling to Master Knight~.. perhaps if the Tavern was busy as the ones in the book were normally, then it wouldn't be boring.. ~wink~.. but confusing.. ~g~
Lemuel~~~ ~S~ What, no Starbucks on Gor? ~chuckles~
Errand Knight~~~ it would be odd for any tavern for example to serve sul paga and We have a rather strange view of bazi tea ....becuase of the bazi tea ceremony which as Kayla has reminded me previously is not of the books
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ ~nodding as she reads the quote her Master posts.. ~... tis the one Yours was thinking of, Master..
aye, kisSmet.. so true..
Errand Knight~~~ you're right jasma ...I meant that Our roleplay would be limited
Paedur of Culai~~~ Learning quite a lot as I watch akeria settle at My feet.
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ ~nodding~.. aye, Master Knight.. no bazi tea service as it's shown online.. which is a bit confusing.. cause although it's the norm in Gorean Shores.. jaz also knows her Master if He'd order it.. He'd just want the bazi tea.. no drawn out *fake* serve.. whereas.. if she did that with Another.. she may offend Them..
Errand Knight~~~ one of the things that we dont do is cut the wines. As gorean alcohlic drinks are normally 80%+ proof compared to earthen 12% they were usually cut using a wine krater to mix the wine and water. Most FW would not drink wine uncut
Lemuel~~~ ~grins at My wench~ Aye, I find the way the tea ceremony is usually done to be excessive, but Others will expect the more elaborate ceremony.
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ aye, Master Knight.. that's very true..
kisSmet~~~ In the Cylinder of Physicians where Master Draco is from they spell out in their rules the online cyberisms they do do not recognize and try to keep their home as close to the books as possible. But every home is entitled to run it as they see fit. But what upsets a girl is when they try to say it is as the books say. It just shows some have not even taken the time to read the books and know what is there and what is not sis, jasma.
Errand Knight~~~ yes jasma bazi tea is a common Gorean drink, enjoyed by high and low Castes. It is commonly served hot and heavily sugared. It may be served in either of two fashions. First, there is a more traditional and formal serve. This serve does not reach the level of a Japanese tea ceremony, it is simply a more formal serve. The tea is carefully measured into three tiny cups, which are drank in rapid succession. Various sugars and milks may be added. Such a serve would rarely, if ever, be done in a paga tavern. It is more likely to be done in one's own home while entertaining. Second, Bazi tea is also drank informally, in regular-sized cups, with or without sugars and milks. Some taverns may have a pitcher of tea ready for its customers. Cakes and Bazi tea is a popular breakfast on Gorean holidays.
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ ~looking to her Owner.. dark pools sparkling~.. aye, Master..
~nods to Master Knight~..
Errand Knight~~~ kisSmet: yes it is a major issue for online gor ..how literal One is with the books which in themselves are inconsistent. I think thankfully the captains here at least strive for consistencey with the books ..ie that we be inventive but in suchj a way that is credible with Norman. I was involved in a very interesting discussion a while back in another place with Kayla about sweetening for example.
Lemuel~~~ What else would set online taverns, or GS, apart?
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ ~nodding as Master Knight speaks again~.. aye, Master.. and in a girl's opinion, although it's been this way since she's been in GS.. she'd like to see it change to a more informal serve as described in the books.. the girls already have to learn alot as it is.. things that are book-related..
~smiling softly to kisSmet~.. alot of people still rely on what's wrote out on various webpages.. which alot of webpages do have alot of GREAT information.. but unless one can actually check the sources from the book.. it's best not to believe it..
Lemuel~~~ ~nods at E.K.'s words~ Yes, We do try to be close to the books, but we also allow some leeway as well. I think it's kind of like religeon...there's orthodox, reformed, protestant, etc. — all with their own take on what is *right* ~smiles~
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ In many paga taverns the girls serve completely nude except for their collar, and perhaps a ribbon of white, yellow, or red attached to that collar.. whereas in GS, until recently, the girls were in silks, now the GS slaves, ~thinking~, at least the girls trained red silk, wear a red sash, this one believes.
kisSmet~~~ Master a must survival skill of a kajira is to be flexiable in what ever home she finds herself. And girl always goes to a homes website before she enters if they have one. It is just some hold up what they have read on websites as Gor gospel and it is only a cyberisms. Such as the books never say Urth or Winds and Steel as a farewell. There are many more girl will not mention. But the Bazi tea ceremony is one of them. There was never such a long drawn out ceremony in the books. And slaves touched weapons and said Tal and used first person often also. But again it is how a home wishes to conduct themselves. It is just some are so ignorant as to claim there things are in the books when they are not.
Paedur of Culai~~~ Understands Lemuels reference to religions and the interpretations of the words.
Thinking though I am glad Norman isn't one of the Prophets, for He would have many chasing their tails even more so than they aer now.
Paedur of Culai~~~ Having had a lesson this evening.
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ ~nodding head, agreeing with kisSmet~
Lemuel~~~ ~looks to kisSmet~ Ignorance is not so bad, at least it can be cured with a little education. Now stupidity...~chuckles~
Errand Knight~~~ jasma: I will have to defer to your knowledge there ..i had the impression that only in the lowest "off the main street" taverns were sluts naked. I would have thought that GS slaves would wear either white or red and in our manner with the single shoulder knot
Lemuel~~~ ~looking about~
Saevus Draco~~~ One of my biggest pet peeves is the extolling of cyberisms as "the right way" of doing things. As you have mentioned, every Home or Tavern has their own way of doing things, and that is their right... but if it is unique, don't claim it to be "according to the books" and expect every new person who enters to know the faux rules.
kisSmet~~~ Responding to Master Paedu of Culai..... Master the books of John Norman are much like the Bible. If you only want to take one sentence and ignore the rest of the context in which it is found, you can prove alomost anything. But the intent may not be founded.
Saevus Draco~~~ *chuckles at Lemuel's comment*
That's when I use my "Whip of Enlightenment"
Paedur of Culai~~~ kisSmet, I would never take any single line out of His books, but then I have not read them all.
I was simply referring to the quality of his writing, and the confusion he brings in some of the books.
Saevus Draco~~~ Norman did change some of the rules as he went along. In most cases, however, he just refined them, such as the monteary system. One must keep in mind that the books were written in different settings, in different parts of Gor, and in different social structures. But the main threads or concepts that were put forth in the original book, Tarnsman, carried through the entire series.
Paedur of Culai~~~ would honestly think that the books shold be a guide to the language and nuances of the world he tried to create.
and that We as Free and slave, find that nuaince within Ourselve, and then develop it as it would fit with in Us.
Why try to conform to something that is not You. learn to take it in, massage it, digest it, and then make it a part of Your persona, but not let it become Your persona.
So like a Spanish-English dictionary, translate his world into yours and then live there as You can
Errand Knight~~~ *chuckles*
sadly though Our gorean bible is loaded with contraditions ..which is only to be expected
a very little one for example (testing the slave girls)
how many slices do you cut a round of Sa-Tarna bread into when serving?
Saevus Draco~~~ *nods to Padeur*
There is some merit to that viewpoint, but then many take it to an extreme and "have it their way" to the point that their home becomes a Disney-Gor home. Given the online venue, some concessions must be made... but the basic precepts of the books need to be followed or anarchy will be the rule rather than the exception
Lemuel~~~ ~nods~ Yes, Norman can be pretty confusing at times, he contradicts himself now and then or changes the rule, as Saevus said...but then the bible does the same thing, so Norman's in pretty good company. ~grins~
kisSmet~~~ Yes Master, girl was not critizing you. She was refering to the many people who take but a little knowledge and come across like they know the books backwards and forwards. The Cylinder does break from the books in that a slave is not required to fur with anyone she does not wish. And though uncollared she is protected. But on irc Bondage Gor you will find more than 1000 people online at once. This is only to protect the girls form HNGs and those who know little of Gor except for what they have read in a few websites. They sound good untill you question them closely. But the Cylinder comes right out and says it in their rules "this is not according to the books but" ...... this a girl can respect.
Errand Knight~~~ Saevus Drako: they also span a considerable time period (from 10,109 C.A to 10152 C.A when One includes Witness) and gor like earth has changed over time
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ now on the same token.. the girl's not saying that there aren't any websites that don't have any reliable information, for there are plenty of those out there too.. one just needs to research.. ~smiling~
~nodding~.. it just depends, Master Knight, upon the Proprietor of the Tavern.. also.. whereas in one book.. it may say naked.. another may say the girls are silked.. ~s~..
and in GS.. there's still the *yellow* silk ones also.
Saevus Draco~~~ Very true, Errand Knight. And online Gor, as an entity, is still evolving and changing. I just don't want to see it degenerate into a mish-mosh of self-serving, self-elevating, holier-than-thou party channels.
Errand Knight~~~ *LMao*
yes I know about yellow silks! huummmph. I was thinking of using My spare Physicaian time to apply for a job as Slave Masters apprentice! I heard it has been vacant since the "dead one" left
Paedur of Culai~~~ I understand Saevos Draco, and well said. I agree that ther still has to be guidelines and rules that must be followed.
kisSmet, I never thought for a moment you were criticizing Me. I do not know enough yet to even wonder that. *S*
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ In Raiders of Gor, it says it's cut into 6 parts, Master Knight
(Raiders of Gor, page 114)
Saevus Draco~~~ True, jasma... there are many good websites, with valuable information on them. But there are just as many that don't have a clue... and how does one know the difference? READ THE BOOKS!
Errand Knight~~~ Saevus Drako: I totally agree Caste Brother ...that is to be avoided, though I do think the literalist/ interpretive debate is a good one to happen. Some say if it aint in the books it cant happen, others like Me, that if its consistent with the books it can. I accept that the line must be drawn however particularly given the number in gor (like Me) who cross from rt D/s bdsm and the fundamental differnces in philosophical premise of the two
Saevus Draco~~~ Agreed, Errand Knight. And good point about D/s vs. M/s.
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding~ I feel much the same E.K. — if it is *consistent* with what's in the books, even if it isn't found there, then it's o.k.
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ aye, Master Draco.. and a girl agrees wholeheartedly.. besides even websites don't give all the whole picture.. only certain things.. it would be like reading a website about the Bible and it only mentioning the flood.. and not about Noah building the Ark, etc
Errand Knight~~~ jasma: this is just a piece of trivia really but as you say
In Raiders of Gor, #6, and Marauders of Gor, #9, there are two brief references to Sa-Tarna bread being sliced into six pieces. I have seen it listed on numerous webpages and I have seen it served that way in many taverns. However inn multiple references, in books #15 through #25, Sa-Tarna bread is either cut into four or eight pieces, depending on the size of the loaf. There is also a justification given for such a division. Si, is there a misprint, an earlier error or something Norman chose to change in the latter works?
as I say trivia ..but perhaps much more trivial than the issue of women of the Warrior caste
Lemuel~~~
“How much bread?” I asked.
“Two of four,” she said. That would be half a loaf. The bread would be in the form of wedges. Gorean bread is almost always baked in round, flat loaves. The average loaf is cut into either four or eight wedges.
"Renegades of Gor" page 70.
Saevus Draco~~~ I agree also with the "consistent" approach rather than the "literal" approach... For example, I just recently moved the Cylinder of Physicians from the Central Cylinder of Ar to the outskirts of Ar, on a river, so I could have more room to build a new facility. That is not "according to the books" because it never happened in the books... but it IS consistent with the evolving, dynamic process of online Gor.
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ ~nodding as Master Knight speaks of the sa-tarna bread~.. a girl would think that it's just another thing that Mr. Norman contradicts himself on.. or perhaps in the later books.. the pans were larger to make the loaves bigger.. like in many other instances.. ~s~
Lemuel~~~
It seems there are usually eight tarsk bits in a copper tarsk, and that these are the result of cutting a circular coin in half, and then the halves in half, and then each of these halves in half. An analogy would be the practice of cutting the round, flat Gorean loaves of sa-tarna bread into eight pieces.
"Magicians of Gor" footnote page 469.
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~
There were great quantities of the yellow Sa-Tarna bread, in its rounded, six-part loaves.
Raiders of Gor, page 114
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding to jasma~ Aye, and then there are the swamp forests of Ar...In "Tarnsman" Norman says they are north of the city. In a couple of the later books he says they are south of the city. ~grins~
Errand Knight~~~ well if I get served 6 pieces Im leaving 2 in protest! *winks*
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ ~chuckling~.. aye, Master..
Lemuel~~~ ~grins~ Another good thing about actually reading the books is that you get to glean all this interesting trivia from the pages. ~chuckles~
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ ~nodding head~.. so true, Master.. ~grins~
Saevus Draco~~~ Speaking of trivia... you are correct... and I also have a Gorean trivia channel that will test even the hardiest of souls. *grins*
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ ~listening to Master Draco's words~
Errand Knight~~~ its a bit like whether beer should be served in GS. As far as i can find there is no reference to it being served in Port Kar. However it is the natural drink of the marsh people and as such it is not a long bow to assume that as we of Port Kar claim soveriegty over the Rencers, that rence beeer would be found in Gs but not say in a paga tavern in Ar or Thentis for example
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ ~shuffling the pieces of rence paper around as she scoots a bit closer to her Master's side.. ~
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ ~agreeing with Master Knight~
aye, Master.. and until a couple years ago, rence beer wasn't offered in GS.. after a slave discussion we spoke of it and then begged the Captains about procurring some for the Tavern.. ~smiling softly~
Lemuel~~~ ~coughing lightly and checking the water clock~
O.K. — let's wrap this up. Anything else on the differences between online vs. the books or between GS and other taverns?
Saevus Draco~~~ *no, Captain, I'm off my soapbox now*
Errand Knight~~~ Lemuel: thanks once again for a great forum
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ ~listening~.. thank You, Master for moderating another excellent, informative forum and a girl thanks You, Master Knight for Your question on the board.. ~smiling brightly~
Errand Knight~~~ jasma: and who would dare say slaves are just pretty slutflesh? *smilin*
Lemuel~~~ Alright, this forum is closed. Normal rules no apply. Thanks to everyone for coming and participating in the discussion. ~S~
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ ~giggling softly at Master Knight's words and winking~.. top