Problems between Free Women and slaves
Rollo the Ax~~~ LOL..LOL... That said, lets get our forum started... Same rules as always.... PM Me with possible topics... jasma tells Me that the only topic left over from last week is this one, so we will start with it...... ** if there is a problem between a Free Woman and a slave or vice a versa how can this be resolved? **
Lemuel~~~ ~listening as the Captain opens the forum~
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ *He listens to see what the kajira and FW have to say on this topic.*
Kyoto~~~ By the Priest Kings, I say slap a collar on the Free Woman and let her and the slave settle it in the pit.
Phen~~~ Kyoto and who is going to slap the collar on her neck?
Kayla~~~ As always the two parties should work it out amoung themselves.. but there are times that may not be possible and so the slave should discuss it with their Owner... and let the Free handle it if need be... or if all else the FW could just kill the slave and be done with it... no argument then *S* ~smiling at the girls~
Ebony's inquietta{EM}~~~ why can't the FW and slave settle it among themselves in private so the whole tavern isn't disrupted by the problem
zoya{GS}~~~ ~*~thinking really hard on the proposed subject...if zoya were in such a situation...~*~
zoya would just say "aye Mistress" and let is go, the Free are always right
Rollo the Ax~~~ LOL...LOL... * Roaring with laughter at Kyoto's suggestion....* LOL....LOL.. That may well be ONE option.. but I am sure that we can come up with an alternative or two......LOL.
Kyoto~~~ Any man present... next topic? *grinning smugly*
Kayla~~~ oh hush Kyoto ~smiling~ that is not always the answer when dealing with a FW ~grinning at Him~.... We can be reasonable at times.. ~shruggs~ Right Lady Phen?
Shadowglade~~~ I'm not sure what the question is here...a FW is still Free is She not? thus wouldn't it behoove a slave to give Her the same response in a disagreement that she'd give a Man? Yes Master/Mistress?
Asellus~~~ That would be too easy, Kyoto. *chuckling, shaking Her head*
And anyway, Kayla, You know as well as I do that people will and do talk. Rumors and gossipping is inevitable. Everyone gets involved eventually. What needs to be squelched is the "snowballing" effect.
Phen~~~ So that means I can go and kill a slave who belongs to Someone else *rubbing my hands together and laughing*
Asellus~~~ In a way though, Kyoto, I bet it would certainly keep the pettiness in check! *S*
Ebony's inquieta{EM}~~~ and if the FW kills the slave should She expect to be killed or collared in turn by the slave's Owner then? or does the Owner have the right to take action?
one would think such an action would only cause more hassles the tavern doesn't need.
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ *Nodding in agreement with Asellus as He listens to the rest of the comments.*
Kyoto~~~ Sure, but you'd then be taking her place, Phen. But then, I'm not up on my Gorean law regarding that.
Phen~~~ OK Kyoto say I am the FW having the problem with a slave You going to slap a collar on Me and then what happens when Bolt comes back?
Asellus~~~ Right, inquieta, that job is too messy for a FW and I'm not about to replace the killed slave! *nodding*
Shadowglade~~~ inquieta, I think you miss the Lady's meaning, she was of course only jesting....
Kayla~~~ Agreed Asellus... and there are tensions sometimes that come up and as inquieta says try to settle it in a reasonable quiet manner but some times knowing the balance of power of Free over slave.. the only recourse to a slave may be to ask for help from her Master/Mistress...
Asellus~~~ But....that would entice a dual of honour, would it not, Phen? Remember We did cover that topic....about a Man defending a FW.
Lemuel~~~ ~looking to Kyoto~ I'm not sure about the law, but I think if a Free killed Another's slave They would be responsible for the cost of the slave.
Kyoto~~~ Aye Asellus...
In all seriousness, I make the suggestion half in earnest and half in truth. A free woman needs to watch her back at all times and Gorean Law doesn't always favor her..
Asellus~~~ *Nodding to Kyoto* Sure. You are right!
Kyoto~~~ He's my brother, he'd have first dibs... *winking at Phen*
Ebony's inquieta{EM}~~~ She may have been Master Shadowglade but it did bring about the questions in this one's mind as to what would or could happen if such an event took place..
sorry this one has become very curious lately
Phen~~~ I'm not sure where is it that the FW of Thurnock the Peasant isn't it gets rid of one of His slaves?
Kayla~~~ replacement is not in body but coin ~laughing~... If I kill a slave why would I take her place... I would just pay the Owner to replace her... and if the Owner still takes exception then they can speak to Shadowglade ~grins~
and aye I am only teasing dears... ~shaking My head thinking these girls know Me better than that~
Shadowglade~~~ I think it's important to note that in the books, FW were, at all times nearly, treated like royalty, unless, and until they crossed the line with some Man. I don't think in all honesty that FW need to watch their backs anymore than any Free Man...or, at least they shouldn't have to. *shrugs*
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ Lets just say that a Master felt that the cost of His slave was to ko'lar the FW that did kill her...Couldn't He do that?
Rollo the Ax~~~ LOL.. Folks, we have here a problem that cuts BOTH ways no matter how you look at it.... If a FW has a problem with a kajira, the nature of the problem needs to be looked at CLOSELY.. to see if it is truly the kajira's fault or if it is some sort of misconception on the FWs part....
Phen~~~ OK Captain so who looks at it closely and what if the FW has tried to make some type of contact with the girl only for her to ignore her in the end?
Rollo the Ax~~~ not Thurnock, Phen..... He is a man of Bosks...you are thinking about Captive I think
Kayla~~~ Aye Ceredigwan but then a Man needs no reason to kolar a FW ~shruggs~... but most would take the price and buy another ~smiles~... one already trained fully not a bull headed FW with way too many opinions *S*
Shadowglade~~~ Besides Durst...*chuckle* when it comes to FW, you're taking a gamble...*chuckle* they're not all beautiful under those veils...*chuckle*
Phen~~~ Thursk?? I know it starts with TH*L*
It was in Slave Girl of Gor, the girl Dina, she belonged to the Peasant, Thurnus, Caste Leader of Tabok's Ford and His Free Companion, Melina, tried to sell her to Tup Ladletender
"She is trying to be pleasing," said Melina. "Would you not like her naked in your furs? She can be purchased cheaply."
"How cheaply?" he asked.
"Cheaply," she said.
"Does Thurnus know that are selling her off?" he asked.
"It does not matter what Thurnus knows. I may do what I wish."
Slave Girl of Gor, page 215Kyoto~~~ Hmmm, also in Rogue of Gor, Beverly sold off Jason's slave, lola.
"She was a poor slave," said Miss Henderson. "She was lazy. Her work was not adequate."
"Where is she?" I asked.
"I grew displeased with her," said Miss Henderson.
"Where is she?" I asked.
"I sold her," said Miss Henderson.
Rogue of Gor, page 143
Dak~~~ *chuckling* @ Shadowglade's remarks
Kayla~~~ Phen I would say that then goes to the part of needing a third person... if it is a real problem and disruptive to the site then even the Council would need to step in to cool things down...
Wouldn't be the first time a slave and FW tangled and usually over some slight about a Man ~grin~
Asellus~~~ I suppose it would depend on the tastes of the Free Man. Maybe some like a challenge, Kayla. I say it's wisest to watch Our backs, regardless. As I've said, the word "comfort" shouldn't be in any Woman's vocabulary on Gor.
Rollo the Ax~~~ Ultimately.... if there is some sort of * problem * that causes so great a shit storm that it can't be handled between the FW and the slave, it then falls to the Owner of the slave to make their will be known.... if THAT fails to resolve the mess, then I would suggest bringing the whole mess to the Council.....
Kayla~~~ ~punching lightly Shadowglade in the arm~... Just how many FW have You seen without veils to make that presumption?
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ *nodding in agreement with Asellus once again.*
Kayla~~~ Agreed Asellus ~smiling~ it is not a part of Mine *S*...
Phen~~~ Why is it that it is always presumed to be over a Man *furrowing eyebrows*
jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~lifting eyes up from the scrolls~
and if the problem happens to be with one that is tavern owned?
Shadowglade~~~ because most owners ARE Men, Phen....
Phen~~~ If it is one of the tavern girls can she go to jaz as her Mistress first instead of worrying the Captains?
Kayla~~~ I used the word usually Phen *S* not always ... I hate the word always... it is as bad as never *S*... but in My experience that has benn the cause most of the time... even if the wrong is only perceived and not real by one or both of the combatants ~grin~
Ebony's inquieta{EM}~~~ what if the slave is visiting and her Owner is not of gor and doesn't know anything about gor?
Asellus~~~ Would anything other than a dispute over a Man cause the ~ahem~ sh*t to hit the fan so hard and so messily?? *shrugging, not sure*
Rollo the Ax~~~ Look folks....from the Gorean position, the FW is ALWAYS right...between Her and a slave.... BUT lets also face facts that here in on-line Gor, the slaves are here by their OWN will.... and if the issue boils down to two * ladies * having some sort of * cat fight * on-line, then they BOTH can be in the wrong to some degree or another.....
Kayla~~~ a slave help a slave against a Free? Seems unbalanced to Me Phen ~soft smiles~... I think it would be best if it is a Tavern girl to seek the Council... They are the Owners and it is part of the job of Owners to handle problems that a girl can't handle on her own..
calia{GS}~~~ ~*basically puzzled gaze looking about the room as calia listens ~* ..and learns...
Shadowglade~~~ Well, I would think then, inquieta, that it would behoove the owner to come to Gor, or the girl to stay off Gor...or perhaps just avoid the One she has a problem with, or work it out...*shrugs* that's a good question...*looking to the wise hulk of a Torvaldslander to cover some option I've missed*
Haskell~~~ *smiling at the comments..thinking..I'd rather be at at tavern drinking some ka-la-na right now*
zoya{GS}~~~ ~*~joins her sister calia's puzzeled looks and continues to listen since none heard her earlier~*~
Kayla~~~ Sometimes an outside person can help it also can inflame the situation... I think it is a case by case thing ~smiles at the thought of cat fights~ How undignified...
Emerald Forest~~~ *I say just chain the kajira to the post in the sandpit until the owner is advised and let Him or Her handle the situation*
Phen~~~ How is that a slave helping a slave shouldn't the FG know what is happening with her chain?
Kayla~~~ A visiting slave that wears a kolar not of Gor is puzzeling to Me somewhat... but if a girl is visiting I am sure she knows the dangers of Gor well enough and the risks of entering ~smiling~
Ebony's inquieta {EM}~~~ this one heard you zoya ~smile~ but as Master Rollo stated this is online and slaves are here of thier own free will and some ~trying to look innocent~ have mouths on them and will speak thier minds, though if they are smart they do so in private
Phen~~~ Also brings Me to the question who owns the GS girls just the Captains or all of the Council?
Kayla~~~ I guess that would depend on protocal Phen... are the slaves required to go to the FG with problems?... If they are then You are correct.. if it is not a requirement then I would say it was up to the girl... ~shrugs~ I know of no such protocal though here in GS... I may be wrong and it may be a good idea just don't know of any so Who could fault a girl for seeking help wherever...
zoya{GS}~~~ just seems to zoya that if the slave knows her place she will do the right thing and respect the Free and not argue, kinda like a silent peace-maker
Phen~~~ Depends but if it is with Me the girl has a prblem with i would prefer her to come to Me first before blabbing off her thoughts that may or maynot be correct into her owner's ear and causing even more trouble..
Shadowglade~~~ *smiling softly at zoya*
galah{RA}~~~ Mistress Phen, the girl would not be able to come to you first...her only correct response to you is "yes Mistress", then if she has a problem, it's for her to take it to the FG, who then can decide if it's a problem the Captains need to know about
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ Good point zoya..but lets say that it goes on after that..Like the FW fusses at you for every tiny mistake...Is that really necessary?
Shadowglade~~~ That would almost seem self defeating though, wouldn't it Phen? A slave always has the last word, yes Master, or in your case, yes Mistress...now that being known, and mostly accepted by most slaves, wouldn't it seem like begging for more trouble for a slave to confront a FW? the girl couldn't hope to win in that situation, and not all FW are as gracious as you, to let things go...
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding in agreement with galah~
calia{GS}~~~ calia believes slave should know her place ,regardless of the issue ...one bites back her emotions and words to merely reply ...yes Mistress... ~* perhaps turn to mistress for help or understanding...but going no further in creating problems for Free...her livlihood depends on behaving in such fashion ....
Kayla~~~ zoya that is very true but I knew a FW once who was very scarey... abused slaves all the time and one in particular... it became to a point where the girl would not enter her home in fear of this abuse... there was no amount of silence that would buy her peace... so what happens in that case... the girl has done no wrong... who protects her? ~smiling at her~ See My point?
jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~listening and offering~.. if there's a problem.. the first girl should be told before it going elsewhere.. but also.. it don't mean that the girl can truly do anything.. especially when there's a Free involved.. so it would still be placed in the hands of the girl's Owners..
as well as.. the he said/she said stuff.. truly don't help matters any unless the actual posts are saved and sent as well..
Ebony's inquieta{EM}~~~ ~shrug~
Asellus~~~ Phen, You are Free, remember, the girl is not. she has no other options but to do as zoya suggests in all actuality.
zoya{GS}~~~ ~*~smiles to her great teacher of wisdom, galah~*~
Phen~~~ Well CD then I say slap a collar on the FW as most FWs are not petty*smiles*
Asellus~~~ Speaking of abuse, Kayla, I asked this question earlier and wanted to bring it up here, whenever this topic is fully covered....*waiting*
Rollo the Ax~~~ Okay.... Y'all want a * chain of Command * call ??? If a GS kajira has a problem, she should try to fix it herself..if she can't, them she should go to the fg to help.... then if jasma can't get it worked out, the whole matter should be brought to the Council...... Advisors can help work things out, but if it comes down to needing a FINAL word, then the Captains will have to rule...
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ So a FW deserves a ko'lar for being petty but not killing a slave?
Kayla~~~ Laughing at the Advisor's words~.. Aye Ceredigwan.. that about sums it up *S*
galah{RA}~~~ and a girl should not be harrassed for going to her Master or Masters with a problem, for the poor girl has NO other recourse...to add additional problem to the girl by telling her off for going to her Master would be soooo wrong
zoya{GS}~~~ Master Durst, all a girl can do is try her very best to be found pleasing and if a FW or FM for that matter were being so nit picky, Others would soon catch on the Free had it in for the slave and as last resort the slave should go to her Owner for advice and see what He thinks...isn't the Master's joy to know everything about His slave? and the slave should keep no secrets from Him
Phen~~~ Yes galah and Others but what if I have gone to the girl to only be ignored in the end as well as being lied too?
Asellus~~~ Sounds good, zoya. *smiling at the girl*
galah{RA}~~~ a FW being angry enough to kill a slave would NOT be an answer either.....for gold/silver/copper does not always replace a slave, for can someone give you a new puppy to replace your long loved old pet? this one would think a FW would not wish the wrath of an angry Master?
Kayla~~~ Then maybe Phen it would be a good time for You as the other party to address the Owner of the girl... if tried in good faith to work it out then it is a recourse open to a FW to approach the Owner with a problem of their property... would it not?
Shadowglade~~~ I would say then, Phen, that the FW in question should take it up with the girl's Master...*shrugs* and the two of them can work it out....
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ *Smiling happily at zoya.* Well said lil' one..
Lemuel~~~ ~looking to Phen~
IMO if You are having a problem with a slave You should inform her Master/Mistress of it and let Them sort it out.
Rollo the Ax~~~ And to answer the question about * ownership *.... the Captains own the GS slaves... the Advisors can act as * representatives * of the Captains, but they can't vote on GS issue's, so they can't sell, or kill GS kajira without a vote of the Captains....
Phen~~~ *Nodding to the Captains words* Sounds good and fair as always Rollo*smiles*
Kyoto~~~ If a free woman killed my slave, then no protector would keep me from taking it out of her hide...
galah{RA}~~~ any slave will do what she can to protect her life, it's the only one she has Mistress Phen, if she ignores other than to greet and answer with "yes Mistress", it's to keep herself from further problems, and yes, if she must lie then she does that also for the sake of her life, as long as she doesn't lie to her own Master or Masters
Shadowglade~~~ *chuckle* that would depend on Her protectors skill wouldn't it Kyoto?
zoya{GS}~~~ aye Mistress Phen, not all slaves are honest and sincere, wouldn't it make sense to have the Free handle it in such a case, of course if there is hard proof in support
Kyoto~~~ I suppose so, Shadowglade, but he'd have to be there then... How would you feel if it happened to one of yours?
Errand Knight~~~ a FW kill a kolared slave? One has much to learn *scratching Oneself*
zoya{GS}~~~ ~*~smiles softly, eyes lowered~*~ thank You Master Durst
Kayla~~~ I could see where a problem like this could get out of hand quickly *S* We don't think twice about a girl asking for help from an HNG with nasty habits that are totally not Gorean so why not in this case as well... They are after all in definition defensless and dependent on the Free for thier very lives...
Ebony's inquieta{EM}~~~ listening quietly
Phen~~~ galah I don't really get that I'm not onto killing a slave for being honest especially when that is what I expect when I have been honest and tried to get to the core of a certain problem..
Shadowglade~~~ Oh, I'm certain I would be none too pleased, but it's also important to remember that as long as the killing happened in GS, the Council would have final say, and would rule on it as either a valid killing or an invalid killing, and I would trust the Council if I thought that there was no just reason for the killing of Our slaves...
Emerald Forest~~~ *I would feel the same way Kyoto*
Asellus~~~ *fanning Herself* Hot topic here~~~ *commenting quietly*
Phen~~~ Thank you zoya and yes I too have learnt a lesson as well C&P everything...
galah{RA}~~~ the problem always arises though Mistress Phen, is each ones' idea of the honesty, whenever there is a problem or a fight, each person ALWAYS thinks they are right, and both think they are being honest....now this pertains if it's husband/wife or brother and sister, friends...any kind of disagreement
calia{GS}~~~ ~*teeth sinking into her lower lip , roaming eyes as calia listens ~*
Rollo the Ax~~~ Phen.... in a way of answering Your question...Perhaps the BEST thing the slave CAN do is to * ignore * any contact with a FW that keeps trying to do outside of the tavern, and let her Master deal with the issue.... I know from personal experience, that it is often BEST for Me to NOT talk to some ppl wen I am PISSED OFF... cause god knows I will say things that I would NOT say once I have calmed down..... if that is the case, then the kajira has shown good sense in keeping her mouth SHUT, and not making the whole thing WORSE........
Kayla~~~ That's why bringing the whole mess to the Council to look at would be better than FW running amuck killing slaves right and left...~grins~... I was using an extreme People... I have never seen a Woman kill a slave unless it was Her own *S*...
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding in agreement with the Captain~
galah{RA}~~~ the difference here is that the FP is always right, even if the girl feels in her heart that she is right she will respond with a "yes Mistress"....for she's not allowed to argue or correct the free
Kayla~~~ ~Nodding at Rollo's words knowing that is a slice of advise I could use on occasion~
Asellus~~~ I don't think it would be very wise for a FW to instigate a slave either. It just makes the FW look bad for trying to make the slave look bad....depending on the situation, of course.
Shadowglade~~~ I think a simple rule of thumb over all for everyone is simply "Be respectful"....*shrugs* treat others as you expect to be treated...and accept the fact that everyone has their ideas, and as long as they fit within the realm of ideas set forth by John Norman when it comes to a Gorean theme, do what it takes to get along...and that means acting like adults...if I have a problem with someone, I confront them privately first, if the problem persists, I seek other options
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding at Shadowglade's words~
Having a Free pledge
Rollo the Ax~~~ Well, I think that this topic has just about run the course for today.....shall we move on to a new topic ??? anybody ???
Kayla~~~ Looks like We finally talked this one out... what's up next? ~Grinning and looking to the Senior Captain~
Kyoto~~~ Agreed, I was ready for the next topic awhile ago.
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ *Wondering if Everyone is ready for the next topic...* I am...
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding~ Yes, next topic please. ~G~
Emerald Forest~~~ *bring it on LOL*
Kayla~~~ Asellus You had one?
galah{RA}~~~ **raises her hand** galah has one
Rollo the Ax~~~ okay galah.... what is your topic.....???
galah{RA}~~~ this one would like to see a discussion about Free pledging and how it's too easy to do sooo....that it should be a more thought on matter and that perhaps it should even be a vote among the council once One's intent is given
Kyoto~~~ *Listening to galah*
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ I know Asellus had an interesting topic as well...
Kayla~~~ What would be the criteria galah? ~smiling~
Kyoto~~~ Good point galah, I agree that the person should have to seek a member of the council and express intent...
galah{RA}~~~ there seems to be some here that have pledged and they really don't get the jist of what Gor is all about, these few keep many from coming in, especially slaves that are required to serve them when they know in their slavebelly that the One is not Gorean
Phen~~~ I can understand your point galah but I would also say the Council has alot of issues to deal with as is...Maybe more of a time frame one cannot pledge before that time is up?
Asellus~~~ *shaking Her head* Uh-uh! *grinning* I don't want to catch hell for beating a dead tarn!
galah{RA}~~~ it was spoken of once about the pledged being mentors for the new Ones....many catch on quickly and make the most fabulous of Goreans, Others never seem to catch on, but because they are pledged, they get all the lurks and perks of the tavern
Emerald Forest~~~ *I always thought that to pleadge to GS it had to be to a Captain anyway Kyoto*
Shadowglade~~~ I would think it would suffice that some sort of criteria were met...like regular attendance for some period of time, and proof that one is at least passably knowledgable about Gor...like showing that One know's the difference between slave silks, and has some idea of Tavern customs...*shrugs*
Kayla~~~ Well.... what One would think as a good prospect anOther would disagree... *S* all You have to do is smooze the right Council Member?...
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding~ I asked the Senior Captain about it before I pledged.
Asellus~~~ Well, doesn't a slave have to prove herself, in a sense, to be upgraded in silks and earn a tavern ko'lar? Are you suggesting that we implement the same standard for the Free?
Kyoto~~~ Perhaps this might be a matter for the advisors to handle? Give them something to warm themselves up to becoming full council members... and leave the really heavy subjects to the Captains?
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ *Agreeing with Phen* Perhaps tell them that they have to wait 5 hands or so before they can even make a pledge. Get to know the other Patrons. I can think of people on the Patrons list that I've never seen.
galah{RA}~~~ time does not help with some Mistress Phen....if there was a secret ballot among the slave and the Free, listing say maybe three names of pledged ppl that don't act Gorean, this one would hazard a guess that the same three names would appear on those secret ballots
Dak~~~ that sounds good Kyoto, if the advisor is in line to become a member of the council
jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~listening to Master Lemuel as He speaks.. smiling softly~
Errand Knight~~~ Shadowglade: I agree though account should be taken of Ones' wish to learn ...there are some like Me who will require the passage of the three moons several times before He can claim a sound knowledge of Gor
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ Aye EF, The Captains are the only ones that can accept pledges...
Dak~~~ well put EK
Gornt~~~ I have the same feeling EK
galah{RA}~~~ this one in all honesty, has NEVER seen One turned down that said he wished to pledge, once they approach a Captain saying they wish to pledge, then it's done....some don't take it very seriously as we all have seen many pledged ones withdraw to go elsewhere, perhaps if they did the checking around to see where they wished to be BEFORE they pledged?
Kayla~~~ Agreed galah.. taking a mental note of Patrons... and how long do We keep a Patron on the list when they never come to the Tavern at all????
Shadowglade~~~ I don't know, I think perhaps it could be done like this: One wishes to pledge to the Tavern...that One then seeks a Council membor, Captain or Advisor, the said Captain or Advisor then trains the perspective pledge, or maybe evaluates their knowledge, and recommends a time frame, or amount of learning the prospective Pledge might need to meet minimum criteria, and at the end of said period, That Captain or Advisor sponsors the pledge? *looking around, wondering what everyone thinks*
Phen~~~ Yes I understand galah as that has been the practice before but if a time limit is introduced as well as what is expected of one who is to pledge maybe they will not bother and leave...
Kayla~~~ actually Ceredigwan We can as Advisors as voted on by the Captains *S*...
Emerald Forest~~~ *You have to remember the time differences with everyone in here Ceredigawn Durst,there are some on the list that I have never seen either but They might be more Gorean then You or Me*S*
Gornt~~~ that is a good idea, a formal approach rather than leaving it to the applicant, sort of like in Knighthood where one pledged as a page then a squire
Dak~~~ I think with that Shadowglade , there would be few new patrons !
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding at Shadowglade~
I like the idea of mentors for the new.
Phen~~~ Not too sure if I agree in totality with that Shadowglade as a person is only getting the ideas of one person and if they are busy it falls to the other patrons of the tavern as well as the slaves to "train" the newcomer...
Kyoto~~~ Sounds good Shadowglade, perhaps a posting stating the prospective pledges needs upon the boards so others may offer help?
CLAIRE~~~ I think It is a good idea Shadowglade
Shadowglade~~~ I disagree Dak, what I'm saying is that The Captain or Advisor who is first approached by a prospective pledge then "takes Him/Her under His/Her wing" so to speak, and helps them along til they are ready, at which point their Sponsor would present them to the Council, and the Council would then make that decision....
Kayla~~~ Something needs to be done about the lack of Gorean knowledge around here... Most of the worst ones do not attend Forums and have never read the Home page and the Council spends alot of time reading emails and listening to complaints about them in whispers
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding to Phen~
You're right, the *training* would have to fall to more than just the new patron's official mentor.
Gornt~~~ I have been to other sites, and they rely on the "pledges" to train themsleves, you don't get a very good student when He or She has to teach Himself
Errand Knight~~~ think it is important to learn the facts, the customs and the code of gor ...Wwe are all individuals none the less who will have different perceptions and exercise different judgements according to Oour individual attitudes and influences ....just as forum always demonstrates
Dak~~~ but how many Captains and Advisors have the time to commit to that
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ True EF, but I come on at all hours and I guarantee that there are people on the patron list that haven't been here in over a year
Kayla~~~ Some will never get it... ~wondering to Myself if a Pledge can be revoked~
Shadowglade~~~ Then when all is said, and done, it is the Sponsor who is ultimately responsible for the actions of a newcomer, and should then take care of the problem Himself, one way or another...and perhaps institute a "second" an already pledged patron willing to back up the Captain or Advisor should He be unavailable to help for any period of time...
Kyoto~~~ Perhaps a new patron board with basic information...
Gornt~~~ why couldn't it M'Lady, it happenes in Fraternities and Soroities all the time
Dak~~~ My Own Mentor, Captain Sabrewolf , has been quite helpful to Me, but has little time to spend with helping Me !
Ceredigawn Durst ~~~ *Raising hand* I do Dak...isn't this what the Piazza is all about? To help the newbies get used to Gor?
Asellus~~~ I think the problem with some of the newer patrons is more than not knowing the difference between paga and kalana and the appropriate coinage with which to pay. What about the whole "appreciating a serve" properly thing We see less and less of in here....and there is more, but that's just one.
Gornt~~~ I imagine the rest of the Free, would feel a responsibility to help newbies, which will make the community stronger
Lemuel~~~ ~looking to Dak~ I'm sure there are others that would be glad to help, myself included. Though, I don't claim to be an expert by any means
Emerald Forest~~~ *people come and go all the time,even if They do know a lot about Gor or not,it is the nature of people,and there is litlle We can do about it*
calia{GS}~~~ ~*blushing softly as slave hears the words of Master Durst..~* as calia thought it was a place to bathe and shave Masters *playful wink*
Dak~~~ the problem there Gornt is that all Members have a different ideas, which then creates confusion !
Kayla~~~ How about some fundementals like not whispering without asking first... Dualing Newbies using two or three names... ohhh and Our favorite HNG's that want You to Hold His dollie while He gets off?...
Dak~~~ aye, Lemuel, you have offered help !!
Shadowglade~~~ *LOL* Damn, Kyoto, another board? isn't two enough? We have the homepage which has all the basic information on it, but it lacks something that no board or homepage can provide, and that's experience...I think it's important for newcomers to have a living breathing posting person to whom they can ask questions, who can explain things in ways they may not understand in a different way....*shrugs* and in the case of those that do not wish to learn, or have a very difficult time because they do not wish to ask questions, or wish to go to another FP for help, they would have no other option should they wish to pledge...thus we're insuring that someone who is pledged, is at least somewhat informed about Gor before pledging....*shrugs* just a thought
galah{RA}~~~ **claps at Mistress Asellus**
guess it comes down to what is it that makes One gorean? many come with interest, some slip into the role naturally and Others never do, so why is this?
Gornt~~~ but isn't that what the PKs gave Us minds for to sort out the different ideas and choose the ones that are most in tune with Ourselves
Kayla~~~ I suggest a test... I know not a popular idea... but as One pointed out earlier... We test the slaves why not the Free... if One is truely intrested they will learn if not then why do We bother?
Asellus~~~ Well in that case, Gornt, One would already know everything about Gor....wouldn't need the help.
Phen~~~ OK so Shadow this would be gender based?
galah{RA}~~~ this one has recruited and help train more Masters than she cares to mention....but it's not a slaves job to teach a Master heheheheheheheheee heheheheheheeee it's very difficult for one with a submissive nature to teach one to be dominant
calia{GS}~~~ *~..clapping softly , agreeing with Mistress Kayla ..~*
eyes dance ....perhaps a handful of basic Gorean questions to scale the knowledge and desire to learn and grow here...
Shadowglade~~~ I don't know that I could agree with that Lady...a test for Free is not why many come online...some come here to escape things like tests, and work, etc....but I would say that perhaps test isn't really what you mean, more of an evaluation....find out of one know's the basic's before accepting his pledge...Am I reading You corrrectly Love?
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ *winking at calia* I am sure that can be arranged as well...
Lemuel~~~ Maybe it goes back to the idea of having *classes* for the Free, or more *open discussions* or something...
Kayla~~~ There has been so many times I have offered some help or advise only to be ignored or given lip service then the Free returns to the same bad behavior... I am sure every Advisor and Captain has had the same experience... If We weeded Those out before a Pledge is taken then We would have less problems
Shadowglade~~~ Well, Phen, I could see as how perhaps if a FW came to a Captain or Advisor, and wished to pledge, it is likely, were I the Advisor She went to, that I would refer Her to either Kayla or Moonglow, as They would obviously know more about being a FW than I would...*shrugs*
Emerald Forest~~~ *but the trouble is Kayla that They might change to the worse after They have pleadged,then what*
Asellus~~~ Hmph! I can weed them out usually when They first step foot in the door....Those that persist to ignore the offered advice and even the encouragement to "role-play" or at least bounce conversation off of another. The new Ones, I find, can be easily sized up if You try.
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ Well put Shadowglade, I take enough tests as is, although if You really wanted to be a part of This Home then You wouldn't mind taking one...However, that could get complicated as well...So I think an evaluation would be an excellent idea....
perizada{GS}~~~ tests are too easy....all One has to do is have a seperate window open with the homepage...that has everything that could be expected for Them to know...and if it's not there it shouldn't be expected for Them to know..other than common knowledge
galah{RA}~~~ but you're never going to get through to Some, this forum is the prime example....those that need it the most are the Ones that don't come to learn....we have all seen Some come in and see a forum on and decide to go elsewhere to have a kalana? so how will you ever get through to those?
Rollo the Ax~~~ I hate to sound negative, folks.....but there are a few glaring problems or * constants * ...that always happen... 1. Being * FREE * those that want to pledge don't want to wait to be * accepted *..... 2. ANYBODY that offers a different opinion or way to do things is * suspect *, or wrong .... so why should * I listen to YOU *... 3. if You have to take the responciblity for ANY new person YOU teach or stand up for to pledge, how long until you get tired of getting shit on, and STOP standing up for ANYBODY.......
Kayla~~~ Shadowglade I mean a test.. written, verbal ... someway of determing the knowledge of the potential pledge... Using Your time frame and a Mentor program and topping it off with a nice big juicy test!... See the real intent of a pledge... not what color are Tarl's eyes but GS site knowledge that is needed to help things run smoothly
galah{RA}~~~ this one agrees with You Mistress Asellus, galah thinks we all, slave and Free, size those up quickly....then why are they allowed to pledge?
Asellus~~~ I think the Captains would have a lot of explaining to do if They refused a pledge....then word would spread and what have We become? We have become exclusive.
Shadowglade~~~ I think what the basic idea here is that It would be a welcome thing if the Tavern was full of KNOWLEDGABLE patrons....whether they're assholes or not matters little to Me as long as they are at least passably knowledgable...you know, someone who know's to pay for their drink once served...one who knows Who's on the Council, and what Tal means...*shrugs* you know, the basics...what the customs of the place they wish to make their home are....if they decide to be assholes after having that knowledge...*shrugs* They will either become very hated, and live a very short life on Gor, or they will leave....*shrugs* or be ignored in the end so...*shrugs* it's a difficult question to answer..
Phen~~~ And vice a versa Shadow if a Man came to either Ladies...
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding to Kayla~ I would hope that Anyone that wanted to pledge would take the time to read what is available on the Home Page.
Kayla~~~ LOL.... Real fast Rollo.. I know that I get discourged giving advise to someOne that will not listen or thinks They know better... But Those will never learn will they?
Asellus~~~ Part of it is--and this may sound a bit silly, but it's true--those that are here now with the exception of a few, have basically grown up in this Gorean online experience together. Our standards are becoming stricter and stricter. This becomes hard for those who want things handled loosely to deal with. We're just used to each other, if You get My drift.
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ *Nodding in agreement with Asellus.* Once again a very good point. We don't want to be exclusive, and actually the Council doesn't have to explain anything...It's just the Council's decision...
Kyoto~~~ Not really Asellus, for no one is saying that person may not ever enter... perhaps the refusal might be tempered in such a way to entice that person to actually make an effort to learn.
Emerald Forest~~~ *there is no answer to the question Shadow as it all comes down to the person itself and how We treat Them*
Kayla~~~ One would hope Lem *S*.. but sadly it is not always true...
galah{RA}~~~ heheheee well a Captain couldn't just refuse to accept a pledge....what would he say after all? but some steps could be put into place to make sure that the pledge is done with proper interest of GS and Gor, and not just the interest of having a steady supply of free ass
Asellus~~~ And furthermore, I've found that if One really wants to discourage the Newbies who are relentlessly ignorant about observing protocal, then just fill the room with talk of Gorean things. Get into the role You play and seriously! The talk will either bore them and go right over their heads, or it may intrigue them and they might change their style. *S*
Phen~~~ Yes I agree with You Asellus but also have learnt a lesson in the mean time I have been roleplaying with one who has been say excluded by some and they have seen this roleplay and still choos to ignore Them...
Kayla~~~ Ohhh Kyoto I like that... We would not be saying no to the Person interacting just not accepting the pledge until They have gained some more knowledge... if done with tact it could work ~smiling at Him~
Shadowglade~~~ I would agree Captain, but I would think that should One decide that They are being shit upon because of something the one their sponsoring is doing , He can either decide to withdraw His sponsorship, and tell said individual to get lost, or attempt to correct the problem...if there is no problem then it would be to that person to tell anyone else that there's no problem and that He's handling the situation...*shrugs* as for someone not wanting to stick around, well, My question is then...if they don't have the patience to learn the basics on the outset, how can they be expected to learn them ever? and as for point number two..it would behoove the Sponsor to make it known that anything taught is personal opinion, and once all the relevant information is learned then what the newcomer does with it is up to Them...*shrugs*
Emerald Forest~~~ *but you can get free ass in whisper's no matter where you are galah LOL*
Asellus~~~ Some are stubborn, Phen. *winks at Her* They will catch on eventually. Don't tell Me there's not a shred of promise evident if the person hasn't left yet, hmmm?
Asellus~~~ Then why enter the tavern, EF? If that's what it's all about, then why bother entering the tavern?
Gornt~~~ But as a new person, I would like some training
Phen~~~ Also are we not in Port Kar the only city on Gor that welcomes strangers?
galah{RA}~~~ Master Forest, many of the Ones this one speaks of, has no conversation skills at all, and they wouldn't find anyone willing even in a sex chat room....but a room full of slaves that can't say NO...must be paradise!!!! this one has alcoved many two and three word wonders, she types four or five lines to Ones two or three words, the whole thing goes in that fashion
Emerald Forest~~~ *thats what I mean Asellus if that is all the person is looking for They don't need to come into the tavern at all*
Kayla~~~ Well Free at least have the right to interact with Whom they wish with no repercussions and if They decide that One is really never going to reach even the lowest level to interact with.. that is their decision.... slaves on the other hand do not have that luxury... they must please all even those who refuse to learn
Shadowglade~~~ *chuckle* Well Gornt, I'll be happy to work with You whenever I'm around...*chuckle* and perhaps in time an official class will be opened...or an unofficial one depending on the interest, and time available...*chuckle*
galah{RA}~~~ thank You Mistress Kayla, that is all toooo true
Emerald Forest~~~ *I understand what you are saying galah and I suppose in that text then They would just learn the basics*
Rollo the Ax~~~ That is the point... as soon as you tell somebody " YOU have to wait until WE decide if you are good enough to be in OUR club " you have shot yourself in the foot... not trying to be rotten or pick on other sites.... but look at other Gorean rooms that have done that ??? like SI... THEY were gonna be * THE * Gorean site....and you had to ask to just get in the door... and VERY FEW asked.... now, they are an open site....like US.... cause it doesn't work to try and stick your nose in the air and play like y'all are better than others.....
Gornt~~~ I understand Shadow, and appreciate the help
Lemuel~~~ ~looking to Gornt~
I would be happy to offer any help that I can, Gornt. I always put My email addy on My posts and I'm available on Q.
Asellus~~~ *smirking* If the Person won't at least go into the tavern and then drag the girl into the alcove, if it is as galah says, then I don't think the Person is worth the effort of typing 3 lines. Tit for tat. And it's coming to a point where I think the responses should be slightly shorter if not equal in length to the chore the slave must do in typing up the "erotic" read. Both in serving drinks and serving sexually. *shrugs*
Gornt~~~ Thank You as Well Lem
Kayla~~~ The city welcomes them Phen not the Tavern ... Goreans are still wary of Strangers here if not more so considering the type of people the city attracts *S*
galah{RA}~~~ any GOREAN Master worth a grain of salt can leave a girl speechless with only a kiss...all the alcoving in a days time does nothing for a girls slavebelly, to serve and please if she is stuck for ahns with a HNG
Asellus~~~ *Agreeing with Rollo* Right on!!
Phen~~~ Well Kayla I have to disagree with You on that especially Ones' who hold a chair on the council we all don't have to agree we can agree to disagree but if someone is in the position to help with the changes in some regard to what Shadow is saying then why are they accountable all the time for helping another..
Lemuel~~~ ~smiling at Asellus~
But it's hard to match some of the girls' posts. Especially for us Men. ~G~
Seriously though, I do try
Asellus~~~ Ohhh, I doubt it's that hard for You, Lemuel. *smiling*
Shadowglade~~~ Well, Captain, how about this....many places won't accept anyone they don't know....why would We?
Phen~~~ Kayla well seems you and I are born to agree to disagree tonight..OK then Taverns don't generally welcome Free Woman either...*L*
Gornt~~~ as do I and I always try to make sure I appreciate their serves
Kayla~~~ Rollo I am not saying not to allow them entrance just not given the honor of Pledging until they know alittle something ~smiles~
Lemuel~~~ ~scatching My head wondering if the double intendre's in that statement were intentional
calia{GS}~~~ a sigh escapes calias lips as she listens to galah ..~*
agreeing completely ...~* ....praises ...words of pleasure found in a girl ..or special gifts...~* smiling to Mistress Kayla~* is what makes a slave burn brighter and try her hardest to ever be found pleasing...
one begs a Builder to make neon sign that reads HNG's are castrated here *giggling*
galah{RA}~~~ a girl doesn't expect line for line when she is serving a drink, but some lil comment to show he is at least watching her alil.....even a LOOK from a Gorean Master leaves a girl weak...but the typical "that was good, you're excused" gets frustrating and leaves one feeling horrid and useless, why do they bother to order a drink?
jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~listening~.. with respect.. the feelings that are inside are sooo much different when it's a HNG pulling a girl off for a quick cyber fuck than when it's a Master bringing all out of a girl is sexually serving Him.. soo totally different..
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ Good point Lemuel, I try as well. Sometimes all I can do is stare in smile in appreciation.
Gornt~~~ ~chuckling at calia~
a bit harsh My dear?
Lemuel~~~ ~chuckling at calia's words~
Consider it done girl ~G~
Asellus~~~ *dry laugh* Ahahahaha, Lemuel. *eyes shining with good nature, however*
calia{GS}~~~ ~*burying her face into Masters inner thigh ,blushing and giggling~* aye Master...calia was thinking of two hours in HNG hell ...*biting back her smiles* she begs forgiveness...
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ I can make that sign calia..*L*
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding at galah~ I try to post a response to each step of the serve even if it's only something to let the girl know I am watching and paying attention.
Dak~~~ I do as well, the girls work hard, and need to be appreciated !
Kayla~~~ ~Smiling at Phen~... agreed they were not allowed in the Taverns... but that is not GS protocal... and to the other issue.. even Advisors and Captains can become weary with Pledged HNG's that refuse to learn... they are after all Human .. Well most of Us are ~smelling the feet once more waving a hand under My nose~
Gornt~~~ I do too galah, I don't seem to always have the words the kajira has but I do appreciate how hard it is
calia{GS}~~~ squirming with smiles~* as calia winks at Master Durst and Master Lemuel ....
Shadowglade~~~ Listen, I'm not saying We make Ourselves exclusive, but I would think it would behoove Us to at least raise Our expectations of Our pledges...you know? I mean, if One pledges upon His first entrance, comes in for a week or so to screw the slaves, and then disappears...what was the point in even accepting an oath that will not be honored?
galah{RA}~~~ so true first girl, ever soooo true!!! doesn't being pledged to a place indicate that the One knows gor? that certainly is not the case...but as long as they are pledged, they are entitled to all privileges of the tavern, including using the slaves...that's why a girl thinks the pledging to GS needs to be taken alil more serious for protection for the girls....anyone is allowed to come in, and drinks served, but the usage of slaves comes with pledging...not a good enough reason to pledge?
Shadowglade~~~ And how can We make that judgement of wether the oath will be honored, if We don't have a little time to get to know the character of the individual wishing to become part of Our family?
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ Good point Shadowglade...*
Rollo the Ax~~~ Aye, Shadowglade....... THAT is how it should be... whoever on the Council accepts the pledge, should know the new person well enough to believe they will be a GOOD addition to the tavern....
Gornt~~~ HNGs will show their color right quick
Phen~~~ Nor is learning to be a Free at the moment Kayla and the Tavern is still in Port Kar...
Shadow pretty hard for one to pledge on their first entrance unless they know what Gor is...And if he disapears so what good riddance as EF said earlier some will come and some will go....
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding at Shadowglade~
I agree. I took the time to learn about the tavern and it's rules before I ever set foot in the door and it was several weeks before I asked about pledging. As Kayla said, not everyone will do that, but I think they should be encouraged to learn a bit first.
Kayla~~~ Well I would like to find Out who thought wrong about a few Pledges We have ~grinning and ducking before Rollo can throw something at Me~
galah{RA}~~~ You're rather an exception to the rule Master Lemuel, you read the books and then came to GS....most that come here have never had a gor book in their hands heheheheheheeee heheheheheheheheheeee
Shadowglade~~~ *nodding to the Captain* and in My opinion Captain, it would make it alot easier to say "No" if We had Council support in doing so...and to show that it isn't merely because The Captain or Advisor who was approached wouldn't accept the pledge "because they didn't like Me", but rather because it is protocol to at least know the individual in passing, and have a good idea of His/Her ability to uphold Their oath...
Emerald Forest~~~ *I Myself was in the tavern for about six months before I pleadged My steel here*
Asellus~~~ Oohhh! *wide eyes rounding out at Kayla's words* That's all on You, Kayla! *L*
jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~looking up~.. you mean there are books? ~eyes in mock bewilderment.. then chuckling~
Dak~~~ yes there are, and those that have them ,don't share well, *chuckling*
Gornt~~~ I freely admit to not having been able to get hold of any Gorean books, but I have been coming to this forum faithfully for a couple of months to learn
Kayla~~~ The two pledges that I have taken since I was made Advisor I will still stand behind... *S* not that They are perfect Goreans but They have a good working knowledge and still strive to learn more *S*
Asellus~~~ There is a circulating library of books, Dak/Gornt. It is posted on the GS webpage.
Rollo the Ax~~~ Then lets make a new rule or at least * rule of thumb * ....... that NO NEW pledges should be taken by ANY Council members until they have been * screened *.... any talked about among the rest of the Council....and if that pisses off the new pledge, they will just have to put up with it...... ??????? and no need to duck, Kayla.... there have been many * mistakes *......LOL...LOL.. some that are gone, and a few that may still be around.....LOL...
Asellus~~~ *Rolling over at jasma's comment, laughing*
Lemuel~~~ ~smiling at the mention of the books~
Well, hopefully the books will become more available in the future. ~sigh~
Shadowglade~~~ *chuckle* that speaks well for You Gornt...as for the books, til last year, I had never read a book either...*chuckle* they are not easy to come by, but once you find one, the rest start coming...*chuckle*
Gornt~~~ thank You Asellus, I will check it out
jasma{GS~FG}~~~ yet, Master Dak.. there's the Gorean Library that there are books available, perhaps not all.. but some.. yet.. it's not being utilitzed.. ~sighing~
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ I wish the rest of the books would start coming My way...although there are a few I need to download and print.*
Dak~~~ I have one I'm reading, thought I had the whole set, there, but can't acces the rest
Kayla~~~ I like it Rollo ~smiling as I rise from under the table~.. and I guess still work with Those problems We have around and maybe They will learn or leave ~smiling at Shadowglade~
Shadowglade~~~ *grinning at the huge Hulk of a Torvaldslander* Aye Captain, I think that works..
Gornt~~~ Books sometimes have a tendancy to walk away Dak, I am reluctant to loan My favorites
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding at the Senior Captain's words~
galah{RA}~~~ can still find them on ebay sometimes going for real cheap tooo, and ebays sister site called www.half.com has books cheap cheap
Rollo the Ax~~~ I KNOW there are Gor books to be loaned between GS patrons...... in the USA... I and galah have sent several over and others have given more.... if things are that sort, I can send more...... I have MANY...... maybe just not all of the hard to find books, or they may be in sad shape, but readable.....
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding at Gornt's comment about books growing legs~
I have had that happen in the past as well and it is unusual for me to lend them unless I know I can trust the person.
Dak~~~ aye, I understand that Gornt, but haven't given up
Rollo the Ax~~~ LOL...LOL.. Don't be too mad at your friend, Dak.... I have * one set * of near perfect books, that I don't let others * handle either....LOL...LOL.. but I keep * loaner * books around also..... LOL..
jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~listening to Master Lemuel.. whispering~.. a girl promises to send back Your Blood Brothers of Gor, Master.. ~winking~
Lemuel~~~ ~smiling at jaz~ I know you will dear one. And I did tell you to take your time now didn't I? ~S~
jasma{GS~FG}~~~ aye Master Lemuel.. and the book was GREAT.. ~whispering~.. perhaps a girl could get.. Guardsman as well some time... ~batting eyelashes~.. (the Jason Marshall series.. after Rogue.. a girl wanted more.. heheheheh)
Kayla~~~ Well are We about done this night? ~smiles~ I think I have stired up enough stuff this night and have a trip to make before being able to rest this day...
jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~hearing the voices drifting off.. looking at the scrolls.. fingers aching.. wiggling them..she gazes to her Owner to see if there's to be more~
Lemuel~~~ ~nodding to the first girl~ Aye jaz, I'll take it down and send it off whenever you're ready for it.
jasma{GS~FG}~~~ thank You, Master Lemuel.. ~smiling brightly~..
Rollo the Ax~~~ Well folks... its time to call this forum to a close....Thanks for all coming and taking part.....same time next week ..... and I hope that everybody got something out of tonights fourm.......
Lemuel~~~ ~smiling~
Thanks again for an interesting evening Captain Rollo.
Asellus~~~ Thanks for mediating the forums, Rollo. Be well! *slipping out of the tavern*
Emerald Forest~~~ *good forum Captain*
Shadowglade~~~ *nodding to the Senior Captain, pushing in My chair silently as I decide to follow My Lady, and see that She makes it home safely, as I make for the door, I nod at all in attendance in turn, then stopping at the door, I turn* I wish you well......
calia{GS}~~~ respectfully low gaze to her wise Owner..~*
thank You Master Rollo for permitting slave to speak openly and attend forum ....one always learns....*her eyes yield behind lowered sooty lashes.....
jasma{GS~FG}~~~ thank You Master Rollo..