Present:
Dak
Lita
snowrose
shuri
Dak 19:44:21 pm CST
I have a topic, Iwill open the forum, hoping the scribe is ready, same rules, keep greetings and chit chat to whipers, for the benefit of the scribe,
first topic
Caste Status
Quotes For This Week
"The tier nearest the floor, which denoted some preferential status, the white tier, was occupied by Initiates, Interpreters of the Will of the Priest-Kings. In order, the ascending tiers, blue, yellow, green, and red, were occupied by representatives of the Scribes, Builders, Physicians, and Warriors." - Tarnsman of Gor, pg. 62
"I was pleased to note that my own caste, that of the Warriors, was accorded the least status; if I had had my will, the warriors would not have been a High Caste. On the other hand, I objected to the Initiates being in the place of honor, as it seemed to me that they, even more than the Warriors, were nonproductive members of society. For the Warriors, at least, one could say that they afforded protection to the city, but for the Initiates one could say very little, perhaps only that they provided some comfort for ills and plagues largely of their own manufacture." - Tarnsman of Gor, pg. 62
Questions
1) The younger Tarl never really gives an insight into his feelings about Warriors being a "nonproductive members of society". What do you think was his basis of thought here?
2) Why do you suppose no one ever role plays an Initiate?
3) Why do you think Norman made Warriors a High Caste?
Dak 19:46:49 pm CST
I would assume the Initiates were afford the highest position becuz they were supposedly closest to the Priest Kings, *smiles*
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 19:48:14 pm CST
For question 2, snowrose thinks Port Kar would not be a city where Initiates would be found.
Dak 19:49:04 pm CST
*smiles, probably not, *smiles*
Lita, Physician 19:49:15 pm CST
And why is that, snow rose?
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 19:50:44 pm CST
Well, They are not missionaries. What reason would they ever have to come to a city of thieves and pirates and outlaws? They're more cerebral than down to earth, she thinks
shuri {ShadowHawk} 19:51:22 pm CST
1.) Perhaps that Warriors are only really useful when there are wars and battles to be fought? If it is a time of peace they really have nothing to do?
2.) This thinks that a lot of interesting characters are not played because many have not read enough of the books to know how to play them. People play mostly what they know, or they don't have the skills to roleplay more complex characters.
3.) Honor is a big thing on Gor, and honor is a big thing with the Warriors Caste, so perhaps that is why Norman made them high caste. And of course, if there is war, they become VERY important. *smiles*
Lita, Physician 19:54:02 pm CST
In Player's two of Boots Tarks-Bits Minions disguise themselves as Initiates, so it would seem that there must be Initiates in Port Kar, else those disguises would have been no use to them.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 19:54:49 pm CST
But wouldn't the Priest Kings require the Initiates to be everywhere, if not hidden, to report what is going on and carry out the will of the Priest Kings? *raises an eyebrow*
Lita, Physician 19:56:42 pm CST
Also, the Priest Kings used the Initiates in the books to help keep an eye out for those who violate the Priest Kings' rules, so there'd be even more need for them in a City known to be lawless than elsewhere, would there not?
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 19:57:07 pm CST
it was carnival, so maybe people just assumed it was a costume.
But she thinks too, that the men who roleplay Gor are of a manly dominant nature, upfront. Not as interested in behind the scenes machinations. Would be hard to roleplay that sort of thing
shuri {ShadowHawk} 19:57:54 pm CST
In the books, are the Initiates ever open about who they are?
Dak 19:59:33 pm CST
what do you mean by open about who they re ?
Lita, Physician 20:01:46 pm CST
Oh yes, they'd have to be, shuri. After all, they lived on the donations of the people. Ubar Luther says " The Initiates are a well-organized and industrious caste. They have many monasteries, holy places and temples throughout Gor. They are also a wealthy and powerful Caste. They regard themselves as the most important Caste on Gor and many cities seem to agree. "
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:02:20 pm CST
Yes....or does it depend on where they are whether they are open or not?
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:04:09 pm CST
*hears Mistress Lita* So did they come out mix among the people, or did they stay mostly to their holy places and the people came to them? Also were Initiates one sex or both?
Lita, Physician 20:05:23 pm CST
Their caste restrictions require them to wear white robes and be bald, shuri, hwhich would make it difficult for them to conceal themselves. They directed the whole religion of worship of the Priest Kings, and because of the Priest Kings' power, even those who didn't really believe they were Gods had to at least pretend respect and subservience to them
Dak 20:05:52 pm CST
I always thought the Initiates were, sort of Like Catholic Priests, and all Males
Lita, Physician 20:06:27 pm CST
Initiates were all Male, and they racn "churches" and worship centers in pretty much the same way as churches do on earth.
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 20:07:18 pm CST
so did snow Master Dak
Dak 20:07:56 pm CST
I had the impression the seldom associated with common folk !
Lita, Physician 20:08:24 pm CST
Luther says, "As there are no female Initiates, how do they get Caste members? Unlike the vast majority of other Castes, membership in the Initiates is not a matter of birth. All of its members had to petition for membership and meet all applicable entry criteria. The books though do not detail what that criteria entails. Though it is a powerful Caste, its various restrictions would serve to limit the number of interested applicants. The Caste is probably also choosy in selecting applicants as they are the highest Caste and must adhere to certain standards. "
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:09:39 pm CST
Ah, yes. Also remember that the Priest King have a thing for "dirty" humans in Their hive. No hair and lots of washing.
Lita, Physician 20:10:18 pm CST
Dak, I believe in the North, when the Kurii attacked, They attacked a Temple where the people were gathered, both high castes and common people.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:11:47 pm CST
Did the books ever say what worship consisted of, or if the people had to make some kind of offerings to the Priest Kings?
Lita, Physician 20:12:56 pm CST
Also, the Initiates ran a Court System, distinct from the "Civil" court system. And they haad a Cylinder in every City
Lita, Physician 20:13:42 pm CST
I know they had to make offerings, Not sure of the worship activities.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:14:25 pm CST
What is a Cylinder Mistress Lita? And why did They have a different court system? Was it specifically for breaking the Priest Kings rules. Was it associated with the flaming death?
Lita, Physician 20:15:30 pm CST
Here is a kind of description from Luther: Initiate temples vary in style and extravagance. Some are quite lavish while others are austere. Temples generally do not have chairs, benches or pews except for worshippers. Only the Initiates are permitted such items. A white rail separates the sanctified area for the Initiates from the common room where all those who are not specially anointed must stand. Goreans do not kneel in the temples. They pray standing up and often hold their hands in the air as the Initiates often do. Weapons are forbidden within the temples. All temples are oriented to the Sardar. On the high altar is a large golden circle, the symbol of the Priest-Kings, a symbol of eternity. There are no depictions of the Priest-Kings as it is considered blasphemy to attempt to depict them. Initiates claim that Priest-Kings have no shape, form or size. Very few Initiates have any idea of the true form of the Priest-Kings. Choirs of young boys often sing in major temples, standing outside the white rail. Their heads are shaved and are most often young slaves who have been castrated by civil authorities. They are trained in song by the Initiates to sing with their beautiful soprano voices. Services may include the smells of burning incense, ringing bells rung, singing and chanting. Animal sacrifices are also common.
The Initiates use various types of thickened chrism, consecrated oil. It is commonly used by Initiates to make the sign of the Priest-Kings, the circle of eternity, on their foreheads. There is also a chrism of temporary permission that allows one not consecrated to the Priest-Kings to enter their sanctified area. This chrism allows laborers and other workers to enter the sanctified area to perform their work. This is considered an inferior anointing. Such anoinitings were first used at roadside shrines to permit civil authorities to enter and slay fugitives who had taken sanctuary within. It is also used for workmen and artists who work in the temple. Dead bodies do not require anointing so they may be freely placed within the Initiate sanctified area.
Lita, Physician 20:19:49 pm CST
There are two court systems on Gor, the city system that is under the jurisdiction of the Administrator or Ubar and the system of the Initiates. These are akin to civil and ecclesiastical courts. The areas of jurisdiction are vague but Initiates claim supreme authority in all matters. This sometimes causes jurisdictional problems with the civil authorities. In actuality, unless the matter directly affects them, they usually do not get involved. Any crime the Initiates wish to handle is done within their temples.
Lita, Physician 20:20:59 pm CST
Some of the Initiates also claim to be able to call down the Flame Death
Lita, Physician 20:21:47 pm CST
And the Cylinder in each City is where the Initiates live
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:22:42 pm CST
Ah, so the Initiates have the right to override civil proceedings if they choose. That is interesting. Do the Priest Kings actually ever speak to the Initiates or is there just a set of rules they are intrusted to carry out?
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:23:50 pm CST
*trying to remember* What was the Flame Death for? Know it was only for a few serious infractions.
Lita, Physician 20:25:36 pm CST
There must be some contact between them, as, if I remember correctly, it was the Initiates Who reported to the Priest Kings that the Physicians were close to finding a cure for Dar Kosis, and I believe the Initiates also assisted in rounding up the Physicians involved, and possibly even helped in administering the Flame Death.
Lita, Physician 20:26:26 pm CST
Usually the Flame Death was only imposed for breaking the rules of the Priest Kings.
Dak 20:28:11 pm CST
th only time I remember reading of Flame Death was in book 2 when Tarl returned to find His Father's City destroyed, and a fellow He met on the road told Him what happened and immediately suffered the Flame Death !
Lita, Physician 20:31:13 pm CST
Dak I believe it was used against some of the Physicians Who were working on the cure for Dar Kosis, when their research cylinder was destroyed.
Dak 20:31:39 pm CST
people were sworn to not tell anyone what happened to that city, an He broke the rule !
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:31:53 pm CST
*laughs* Do people actually know what will get them the flame death? or is it arbitrary to the Priest Kings will?
Dak 20:32:56 pm CST
not sure about that becuz Vika was sent back to help with the finding of a cure for it !
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:33:28 pm CST
Why destroy Physicians? Where they not supposed to be working on the cure?
Lita, Physician 20:33:48 pm CST
I think it may be fairly arbitrary shuri, to keep the people in fear of it, you know?
Lita, Physician 20:34:57 pm CST
shuri, the Priest Kings did not WANT a cure found for Dar Kosis. That is why They destroyed the research.
Lita, Physician 20:38:00 pm CST
yes, Dak, when the Physician Who had led the research turned back up, and I forget HIs name at the moment, Vika left the Sar Dar to go with Him to help with the research. However, if You recall, it was shortly after that that the Mother died, and there was a change in Power in the Nest, so they had more important things to worry about than Dar Kosis research.
Lita, Physician 20:42:18 pm CST
Oh. Flaminius was the Phyhsician's name.
Dar-Kosis: This is a horrible disease, similar in some ways to Earth leprosy. It is highly contagious, currently incurable and feared by everyone. The named "Dar-kosis" means Holy Disease. The Initiate Caste believes that the disease is a tool of the Priest-Kings, used by them to sanction those who have somehow displeased them. Because it is considered a sacred disease, it is considered heresy to shed the blood of an infected victim. Strangely enough, it is not considered heresy to stone an infected victim, even if the stones are going to make the victim bleed. Another ramification of the disease being considered holy is that the Initiate Caste will not allow anyone to seek a cure. They will and have taken action against members of the Physician's Caste who have tried to research a cure. If legal remedies will not suffice, the Initiates will hire armed men to physically prevent the Physicians. Some Physicians have been killed by such means.
Dak 20:43:04 pm CST
I thought the Mother died before she was sent back !
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:44:50 pm CST
HHmmmmm, wonder if the disease is ultimately to cull the population? Because prolonged life and good health is predominant in Gor if this one is correct.
Lita, Physician 20:45:42 pm CST
Here is Luther regarding the attempt to find a cure:
A few years before the events of Assassin of Gor, a group of Physicians in Ar tried to seek a cure. Flaminius, first in his Caste, led the research program. The Physicians had developed a strain of urts resistant to Dar-kosis. They then created a serum, cultured from the urt blood. When this was injected into other animals, they could not be infected by the disease. But at that time, someone betrayed them to the Initiates. The Initiates asked them to stop the research but they refused. The Initiates petitioned Marlenus but he refused to do anything. Soon after, a group of armed men stormed the Cylinder of Physicians. They damaged the Cylinder, burnt the research floors, killed some of the Physicians and ruined most of the research. That would stop their research for several years. Flaminius was burned over half his body and became somewhat of a drunk. After the events of Assassin of Gor, Flaminius chooses to return to his research for a Dar-Kosis cure.
Lita, Physician 20:47:36 pm CST
That could be, Dak. Been some years since I last read Priest Kings.
Dak 20:48:54 pm CST
I've read it twice, and the last time was just a couple years ago
Lita, Physician 20:54:53 pm CST
Now then, why do you suppose Norman made the Warrior Caste a High Caste?
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:55:46 pm CST
Honor is a big thing on Gor, and honor is a big thing with the Warriors Caste, so perhaps that is why Norman made them high caste. And of course, if there is war, they become VERY important. *smiles*
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 20:56:25 pm CST
because They risk their lives for the common good? And have a very strict code of honor?
Lita, Physician 21:03:29 pm CST
I think in most societies, the military is a highly respected profession because it works to protect the society.
Lita, Physician 21:07:36 pm CST
Anybody else got thoughts on this?
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 21:07:58 pm CST
not right now Mistress
Lita, Physician 21:09:16 pm CST
Well, it is after 10:00 here. Shall we wind this up?
Dak 21:09:54 pm CST
nay, I would assume so they would have some kind of control over warriors
shuri {ShadowHawk} 21:11:01 pm CST
They have control over the Warriors by them being High Caste?
Dak 21:11:12 pm CST
aye, it is late, I will call the Forum to a close, and thank all for coming and participating,
thanks shuri for scribing
Lita, Physician 21:12:22 pm CST
The Warrior Caste is the lowest of the High Castes
snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure~GS~fg 21:13:04 pm CST
Thank You for leading forum Master Dak....it was very interesting
Thank You for always finding good topics Mistress
thank you for scribing shuri