Present:
Dak
Lita
shuri
Dak 19:53:33 pm CDT
ok, I will open the Forum, same rules, keep chit chat and greetings to whispers, here is the rest of the topic'
Questions
1) Owners: How do you instill obedience without breaking the spirit? Slaves: What kind of discipline instills obedience without breaking your spirit?
2) The second quote speaks of "disobedience with nobility". Give an example of how a slave might do this.
3) Why or why not is fear an effective tool for obedience?
The second quote from Priest Kings of Gor is about a free man.
This man had been implanted with a chip that allowed the Priest Kings to see what was going on.
It was indicated when the man's eyes turned red, that meant that the Priest Kings were looking
and seeing through the man's eyes.
This man was not the only man in Priest Kings of Gor to have been implanted.
This man disobeyed the Priest Kings in giving Tarl a warning and advice. The Priest Kings destroyed Koroba in order to get Tarl's attention and for Tarl to go seek them out, which he did.
This man, who held to his own will and not to the will of the Priest Kings had his head explode right after he gave a warning to Tarl. He was born free and for all intents and purposes appeared still to be a free man but the Priest Kings tried to make him an instrument of their will. He stood against that. He retained his freedom as a free man. That was his nobility in that he would not allow the Priest Kings to turn him into a robot of sorts. In the natural order of life found in the Gor series, this man retained his place in that natural order and remained and acted as a free man. That was his nobility.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 19:59:57 pm CDT
Discipline that is mostly fair helps this one be able to accept discipline that may not be fair when dealt of frustration or anger. A girl needs at least some sense of benevolance or appreciation from her Master at times in order to not break her spirit. Servitude done only out of fear does not foster spirit in a girl.
prissy(RD) 20:04:11 pm CDT
Has left the chat
Lita, Physician 20:04:48 pm CDT
But shuri, is it up to a slave to decide whether or not a discipline is fair? Regardless how it is dealt out?
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:05:23 pm CDT
Fear can definitely be an effective tool for obedience. But if it is the only one used, or coupled with cruelty, then eventually it breaks the spirit. A girl might go through the motion, but it will become increasingly hard to so with any real spirit.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:08:50 pm CDT
Mistress Lita: This one is not saying she can control how it is dealt out. Of course it is not for her to decide, but the question was.......
What kind of discipline instills obedience without breaking your spirit? Not is it fair or her decision.
A girl can be effective through fear and cruelty, but if that is the only thing she gets, it will eventually break her spirit. This one thinks most Masters prefer a little healthy fear mixed in with at least some praise and the occasional kindness. Most do not want their slaves to be robots, or to serve them out of fear alone.
Lita, Physician 20:09:55 pm CDT
o.k. shuri, How about "disobedience with nobility" from a slave? Any examples come to mind?
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:11:41 pm CDT
*Furrows brow* Does that mean nobility or any Master or Mistress? *looks a bit confused*
Lita, Physician 20:14:00 pm CDT
O.K. The quote given describes a Master. However the question is to give an example of disobedience with nobility from a slave.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:14:37 pm CDT
Or do they refer to man implanted with the chip from the Priest Kings. How He defied them and They killed Him? How to have honor with disobedience?
Lita, Physician 20:15:03 pm CDT
And the "Master" in the quote was at the time a "slave" to the Priest Kings.
Dak 20:15:35 pm CDT
does a slave have any nobility to be a slave ,
Dak 20:16:04 pm CDT
but He was also a Free Man, *smiles*
Lita, Physician 20:17:14 pm CDT
o..k. shuri, the Books say that a Free Person should choose the "Honor" of death over slavery. One thing Tarl had not learned when the Rencers captured Him
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:17:19 pm CDT
This one does not see any instance where a slave would have nobility or honor and disobey the Free?
Unless maybe a slave were asked to do something against their Master or His wishes and they refused to do so. Though that does not seem to happen often in the books either. Slaves seem to obey whoever has the most sway over them at the time, especially if their lives are threatened.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:18:02 pm CDT
*nods* Yes, but honor and nobility are for the free, not a slave. This one has a hard time seeing how such a thing applies to a slave.
Lita, Physician 20:19:56 pm CDT
O.K. Dak, the book example that comes to My mind was when Bosk was embattled on the Rooftop of His holdings, and told His slaves to go below to safety, and they grabbed weapons and helped Him fight off the attackers. they were not punished for this afterwards. The "noble" thing for them to do was to help their Master, though He had ordered otherwise.
Lita, Physician 20:20:48 pm CDT
Now while slaves cannot ordinarily "have" honor, they CAN and DO BRING honor to their Master and His collar
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:20:57 pm CDT
Where the slaves male or female? or both?
Lita, Physician 20:21:58 pm CDT
shuri the slaves were female, though what difference would that make?
Dak 20:22:34 pm CDT
well, I think that was a case of they would rather face the rath of their Master, than face life without Him,*smiles*
Lita, Physician 20:23:10 pm CDT
True, Dak. However, it was still the "right" thing to do.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:23:38 pm CDT
Um, because females....or rather she thought slave at all......are not allowed to touch weapons. Is not the punishment for such death? *raises an eyebrow*
Dak 20:25:00 pm CDT
it may have been right, not sure about noble, *smiles* not sure it had anything to do with their nobility as a slave ?
Lita, Physician 20:34:32 pm CDT
In some places, shuri, it is. However, that rule did not hold everywhere. And remember, slaves were allowed to use whatever implements were necessary to perform their duties, such as knives in the kitchen, scythes and other "weapons" in farming, knives in fishing, etc. Then ofm course there were the fioghting slaves. In fact, the very quote about it says "in some cities" it was death for a slave to touch a weapon, and Tarl respons that He assumes they were allowed to touch them in performance of their duties.. slaves of the Red savages were permitted to carry knives
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:37:53 pm CDT
*nods* Okay.....this one was not aware it changed in some places. This one believes the knives in the kitchen are tied to something are they not? So they cannot be removed.
Assumes some female slaves worked in farming? Not sure female slaves were ever officially used as fighting slaves? Though does know about the Panther girls, but technically they were not slaves.
Slaves of the Red savages? Did they include females? *Very curious*
Lita, Physician 20:42:52 pm CDT
Yes, the slaves of the Red Savages were both female and male. And the tying kitchen knives to something is not mentioned in the books. And I don't recall female slaves being used as fighting slaves, though in one of the movies made of Gor they apparently had something similar to a mud=wrestling match with the female slaves. *LOL*
Dak 20:43:34 pm CDT
*smiles*
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:45:07 pm CDT
*laughs* Is not surprised they had mud wrestling in the movies.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:46:05 pm CDT
*Frowns* Though read somewhere that the knife in the kitchen was attached to something to keep it from being removed. May it was in someone's roleplaying or a description she read as some Gor site.
Lita, Physician 20:46:29 pm CDT
It's kind of like slaves and coins. In some Cities slaves could not touch coins. But again this varied. In one scene, I believe it was in "Magicians" a female slave was dancing and having coins thrown to her. when she finished dancing, she made a bag of her skirt and gathered the coins up off the street and put them into the bag, using her bare hands to do so.
Dak 20:47:05 pm CDT
possibly, I never read it in the books, that I know of
Lita, Physician 20:48:07 pm CDT
I believe the knives in the kitchen here are chained to the counter. It's just that that isn't a book practice
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:49:29 pm CDT
Wasn't that in Players of Gor? Have read some of that lately. Thought even there that the girls used some kind of cloth or something to pick up the coins. Don't recall with their bare hands but with school and everything else this one reads, and all the stuff she reads online, sometimes she gets confused.
Lita, Physician 20:49:48 pm CDT
There are many different cultures represented in the books, shuri, and these various cultures do things differently.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:50:38 pm CDT
*laughs* As if Norman's contradictions are not enough, there are those between sites and players as well. No wonder a girl gets so confused sometimes.
Lita, Physician 20:51:24 pm CDT
shuri it has been so long since I read Players and Magicians that I am not sure which it is in. However, the bare hands thing I do recall because it surprised me at the time, having been used to seeing the slaves carry coins without touching them.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:51:49 pm CDT
*nods to Mistress Lita about the cultures* This one is learning that.
Dak 20:51:55 pm CDT
I'm not sure thy are chained, just blunt on the end
Lita, Physician 20:53:24 pm CDT
True, shuri, and as I said, many of what some folks call "contradictions" in the books are not really so. They are variances among cultures. For example the Waniympi, "The Sames", who did not believe in sex at all until Tarl almost singlehandedly "converted" them! *LOL*
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:53:32 pm CDT
*Nods to Mistress Lita about the touching coins*
Lita, Physician 20:54:10 pm CDT
Well Dak, I have seen some of the girls rp that they are chained, so I just figured that was the accepted practice here.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:55:08 pm CDT
*nods to Master Dak*
*laughs* Have not come across the Waniympi yet. Why does that not surprise this one?
Kazar~infamous pirate 20:55:41 pm CDT
Has joined the room
shuri {ShadowHawk} 20:56:30 pm CDT
This is probably why Master said He wanted to train a girl Himself. It is unfortunate that He has not been around.
Dak 20:59:21 pm CDT
becuz they are in books 18, I think.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 21:00:24 pm CDT
Ah, *nodding to Master Dak* and Master says He has not read above #10.
Greetings Master Kazar
Dak 21:01:00 pm CDT
I can remember in the past with some foods them bringing a knife to the Master
Dak 21:01:29 pm CDT
I have read 26 of them twice
Lita, Physician 21:04:00 pm CDT
Possibly. However I recall also one scene in one of the books where a female slave was shaving her Master, with a straight razor! And yes, I have read 25 of them, some of them several times. When I had them all on-line I used to do word searches in them to find such information. Had them all in neat little files. Until that particular computer crashed beyond repair. Back then they weren't making the little thumb drives you can plug in and take the info off to in case of emergency.
Dak 21:04:15 pm CDT
well, need we discuss this any further ? *smiles*
shuri {ShadowHawk} 21:04:41 pm CDT
That is quite a feat Master Dak. This one finds them hard to read. she usually breezes through books, but finds the Gor books rather tedious sometimes.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 21:05:46 pm CDT
Oh Mistress Lita, that is indeed unfortunate!
Lita, Physician 21:06:29 pm CDT
Not as far as I am concerned. Seems we have pretty well covered it.
shuri {ShadowHawk} 21:06:37 pm CDT
*smiles* No, do not need to. It is rather a short discussion with only three of Us.
flicka-slave of Keeper 21:07:37 pm CDT
~slips in with a nod of apology to all for her non attendance at forum~
Dak 21:07:51 pm CDT
ok, I will call the Forum to a close for this week, thanks for coming, and thanks shuri for scribing