Present:
Dak
Ramses
Keeper
Bretval
Sheadon
Lita
snowrose
lilith
karinda
flicka
natira
zoya
jira
Dak19:32:17 pm CDT
if anyone has a topic whisper it to Me, and I will open the forum
Dak19:37:59 pm CDT
ok, I have a topic, so I will open the Forum, same rules as always, keep chit chat and greetings to whispers during the Forum, have mercy on the scribe,
first topic
Topic: Blackwine, by the books.
What is Black Wine?
How is Black Wine served?
Is it ever served in bowls?
Is it ever served in mugs?
Ramses 19:39:14 pm CDT
hmmmmm, I, for one, have not been very "by the book" with respect to blackwine
Ramses 19:40:10 pm CDT
blackwine is strong and expensive
karinda {GS} 19:40:25 pm CDT
Master Dak.....blackwine is served in a large cup for Free Men and a small cup for Free Women.
snowrose{JTr}~GS~fg 19:40:54 pm CDT
accordng to the webpage it's served in a bowl to Masters and small cup to Free Women, though snow can find no book citation for the bowl...but that is how we are serving it
lilith {GS} 19:41:22 pm CDT
served in bowls for Masters and small cups for Mistresses
Lita, Physician 19:42:04 pm CDT
Black wine: This is a coffee-like drink made from beans grown only in the mountain city of Thentis. Thentis does not trade the beans to make this drink. The punishment for attempting to smuggle the beans out of Thentis is death. It is very strong and bitter, almost like expresso coffee, or Greek or Turkish coffee. It likely has an Earth origin, especially due to its limited area of growth on Gor.
It is very strong and bitter. In some ways, it is like expresso coffee, or Greek or Turkish coffee. Thentis does not trade the beans to make this drink. In Thentis, it is commonly only served in High Caste Homes. It is an expensive luxury outside the area of Thentis, affordable only by the wealthy.
Ramses 19:42:09 pm CDT
I don't think there are any mug citations either
Keeper- The Keeper of flicka 19:42:26 pm CDT
It is served in what ever the Master wishes. I am a Gorean Master. I will have My black wine in whatever and however I please, same on urth.
Bretval, Merchant 19:42:48 pm CDT
I always look at this way... this is Port Kar... We make our own rules and who cares what the rest of the plant does
lilith {GS} 19:42:48 pm CDT
a girl would never serve black wine in a mug...a girl did not think there was such thing as a mug here on Gor...
Ramses 19:43:03 pm CDT
that has basically been My approach, Keeper
natira{GS} 19:43:16 pm CDT
she has seen, in assassins of gor, it being served in a heavy clay bowl as well as the term cups
Lita, Physician 19:44:01 pm CDT
you are correct, snow. I wanted to bring this up, hoping the Council might possibly consider revising that rule to be closer to the books, as GS has always prided itself on being as close to the books as possible, and has revised other rules to bring them more in line with the boo0ks
natira{GS} 19:44:20 pm CDT
I had heard of black wine, but had never had any. It is drunk in Thentis, but I had never heard of it being much drunk in other Gorean cities...Then I picked up one of the thick, heavy clay bowls...It was extremely strong, and bitter, but it was hot, and, unmistakably, it was coffee.
---Assassins of Gor, p 106
Bretval, Merchant 19:44:34 pm CDT
Face it Ramses we probably got it illeagally anyway *g*
Lita, Physician 19:45:39 pm CDT
natira. I will have to re0check Assasains. When I did the word search through all the books on black wine, I found no references to it being served in a bowl. One because it is so strong, and two becaUse it is so expensivel. Here are some quotes I did find:
snowrose{JTr}~GS~fg 19:45:43 pm CDT
snowrose hopes the Free will always tell the serving slave if They wish it served other than the way we are told to do it...we slaves want Everyone to always be pleased
Ramses 19:45:54 pm CDT
that's what we do, Bretval *laughs
Keeper- The Keeper of flicka 19:46:03 pm CDT
Gorean rooms are similar to translating a book into a film. When you change one into the other, you do not use every word from the book. The main thing is to capture the spirit of the book.
Lita, Physician 19:46:41 pm CDT
In the river cities and some northern cities, the phrase "second slave" indicates that you do not want any creams or sugars with your black wine. This comes from the custom in some areas for two kajirae to serve black wine. One kajira is responsible for putting down the cups, taking the orders and seeing that the drink is prepared according to the customer's preferences. The second kajira only pours the black wine. In some areas, there are more formal blackwine services, such as in the Tahari region.
It is traditionally served very hot, with yellow or white sugars and powdered bosk milk, in tiny cups. Other sugars, spices or cream may also be served with it. The cups may have small handles or not.
She poured, carefully, the hot, black beverage into the tiny red cup.[Tribesmen of Gor p105]
The voluptuous slave of Aemilianus, whom he had not yet named, placed the tiny silver cups, on small stands, before us..[Guardsman of Gor p244]
I lifted the tiny silver cup to my lips and took a drop of the black wine. It’s strength and bitterness are such that it is normally drunk in such a manner, usually only a drop or a few dr
natira{GS} 19:47:11 pm CDT
(here is another quote on bowls for blackwine)
Too, I had brought up a small bowl of powdered bosk milk. We had finished the creams last night and, in any event, it was unlikely they would have lasted the night. If I had wanted creams I would have had to have gone to the market. ---Guardsman of Gor, p 295
natira{GS} 19:48:35 pm CDT
not sure if that last quote is right however. but its one she found
lilith {GS} 19:48:39 pm CDT
a girl has been taught to serve the black wine in a bowl for Masters and small cups for Mistresses/ Free Women and if One wishes it served other wise then They must let her now if it is different from the way she was taught
karinda {GS} 19:48:49 pm CDT
that is a good quote natira.
snowrose{JTr}~GS~fg 19:49:02 pm CDT
well, that one is a bowl of cream, but the Assassin quote as for the blackwne itself
natira{GS} 19:49:31 pm CDT
the first one is better ~smiles~
snowrose{JTr}~GS~fg 19:49:46 pm CDT
or rather powdered milk to add
Lita, Physician 19:49:48 pm CDT
Keeper, the trouble with that is, Where do you stop? If you allow small changes here and there, the next thing yuo0 know, folks are wanting to have Vampires on Gor! And believe Me, I once visited a room that did just that! And speaking of mo9vies, there were movies made of two of the books, and they departed so much from the spirit o9f the books that Gor wawss hardly recognizable in them! Some of My Gorean Friends used to get drunk on Saturday nights and watch them for laughs!
flicka, slave of Keeper. 19:50:08 pm CDT
mistress snowrose, that is this girl's feeling, if a Master said to the girl "I want blackwine served in the biggest horn you have" then this girl would serve Him in that, she might make a comment that He may have to pay The Tavern more than the standard fee, but a Master's word is law.
If the Master doesn't specify, then a girl will follow the manual.
Ramses 19:50:16 pm CDT
well said Keeper
Keeper- The Keeper of flicka 19:51:15 pm CDT
snowrose, in keeping with spirit of the books, Master should always tell the slaves if there is a deviation from what is considered normal, or in the manual, or if it is one of the thousands of contradictions in JNs books.
lilith {GS} 19:52:12 pm CDT
exactly flicka....
snowrose{JTr}~GS~fg 19:52:40 pm CDT
~laughs~ yes Jarl Keeper...many many of those...once on the same page
natira{GS} 19:53:00 pm CDT
precisely flicka. she will serve the drink in whatever she is told to serve it in despite the traditional vessel
natira{GS} 19:54:31 pm CDT
like what she was reading about the first and second slave usage, it is changed on the smae page..makes no sense
Keeper- The Keeper of flicka 19:54:57 pm CDT
Lita; vampires are not in the spirit of Gor. A well made translation of book to film, or book to room can become the seminal text. I would use Lord of the Rings as an example. It has become the recognised text now because it is so well translated. If Peter Jackson was a pedant it would be an utter and boring failure
Lita, Physician 19:55:04 pm CDT
natira, could you find the quote from Assassins for Me? My Word program is outdated and will no longer do a Search for Me.
natira{GS} 19:55:48 pm CDT
"I had heard of black wine, but had never had any. It is drunk in Thentis, but I had never heard of it being much drunk in other Gorean cities...Then I picked up one of the thick, heavy clay bowls...It was extremely strong, and bitter, but it was hot, and, unmistakably, it was coffee.I had heard of black wine, but had never had any. It is drunk in Thentis, but I had never heard of it being much drunk in other Gorean cities...Then I picked up one of the thick, heavy clay bowls...It was extremely strong, and bitter, but it was hot, and, unmistakably, it was coffee."
---Assassins of Gor, p 106
---Assassins of Gor, p 106
Bretval, Merchant 19:56:35 pm CDT
Good I want Mine served in a mug *g*
Lita, Physician 19:57:22 pm CDT
natira, the first and second slave useage is changed because it is done one way "In the river cities and some northern cities", as per the quote, and differently in the South and elsewhere. Just as on earth some customs vary between areas.
natira{GS} 19:57:36 pm CDT
giggles hearing master Bretval
flicka, slave of Keeper. 19:57:40 pm CDT
~laughing with Master Bretval~ a mug it is.
Dak 19:58:38 pm CDT
I think the idea of what is said in the manual, is to let everyone know what is available in this tavern, not that GS carries every conceivable vessel possible !
Lita, Physician 19:59:39 pm CDT
Good point, Dak.
Bretval, Merchant 20:00:12 pm CDT
~shrug~ ok.. a tankard then
Dak 20:00:54 pm CDT
not all the taverns on Gor served the same thing the same way !
lilith {GS} 20:00:54 pm CDT
*nods agreeing with Master Dak*
zoya~{Thadron} 20:01:29 pm CDT
if zoya remembers correctly, all mugs were thrown out a long time ago by Master Rollo and unless have been replaced over time, there are no mugs in the tavern.
Lita, Physician 20:02:28 pm CDT
thank you for the info, zoya
Keeper- The Keeper of flicka 20:02:31 pm CDT
That is true Dak. I agree with you. These things have have to be kept within reason, otherwise W/we lose the underlying meaning of the text. It is the meaning that is important, not the tiny detail, on each and every page
flicka, slave of Keeper. 20:03:32 pm CDT
Master Dak, a girl would imagine that not many Masters slavishly read the manual, and neither should They need to. That is not to say that it is acceptable for a Hopelessly Non Gorean to come into a Gorean Room and ask for a 7Up served in a plastic McDonald's cup. This girl feels that it is for we slaves to follow the manual and in a respectful way suggest the vessel to the Master if He is floundering
zoya~{Thadron} 20:03:48 pm CDT
~softly~ yes, Mistress
Dak 20:04:37 pm CDT
I've always related the Gor Books to like a bible for Gor with contradiction and all ! it's more a blueprint, than an actaulity
flicka, slave of Keeper. 20:05:25 pm CDT
well said Master Dak.
Dak 20:05:59 pm CDT
well, GS does have a menu , posted atthe top of the page
Ramses 20:07:09 pm CDT
*nods in agreement with Dak
Keeper- The Keeper of flicka 20:08:54 pm CDT
Indeed Dak. Life is somewhat more complicated than any book or series of books. Read the menu, make and an order, or like on Urth, inquire if they have something that is not on the menu. End of story.
lilith {GS} 20:08:59 pm CDT
*nods, agreeing with Master Dak*
Dak 20:09:29 pm CDT
exactly , *smiles*, Keeper
Lita, Physician 20:10:16 pm CDT
Ohhh! Jut ran across a quote that says that there had been an instance of a cup of black wine in AR selling for a silver eighty-piece! Talk about Black Market Prices!
Bretval, Merchant 20:11:57 pm CDT
That's why We steal it, Lita *L*
Dak 20:12:07 pm CDT
I don't think I need Blackwyne at that price, *smiles
Sheadon~ Pirate 20:13:12 pm CDT
where's a question.. when John Norman first wrote the books did he intend for people to try to live that life style in the books.. the books are interpreted difrent ecah time by difrent people who read it
Bretval, Merchant 20:14:30 pm CDT
Hmm.. ~thinking... maybe I can acuire a few plants...~
Keeper- The Keeper of flicka 20:15:11 pm CDT
He wrote the books for the same reason Alfred Hitchcock made Psycho. To prove that anyone could do it.
Dak 20:15:22 pm CDT
I seriously doubt He did , I've alway been under the impression He wrote the books in objection to the ERA , *smiles*
snowrose{JTr}~GS~fg 20:16:28 pm CDT
she would imagine that He's astonished by it...like the Star Trek writers never dreamed there would be Trekkies...actually she is is astonished by that one
natira{GS} 20:16:47 pm CDT
wonders if thatis why 50shades was written ~giggles~
flicka, slave of Keeper. 20:18:00 pm CDT
a girl looked up JN on Wickipedia once and as she recalls He distanced Himself from all Gorean lifestyle and especially online Gor. But a girl's memory on that is a little hazy.
natira{GS} 20:18:00 pm CDT
sorry knows that was off hand but couldn't help but wonder
natira{GS} 20:18:30 pm CDT
karinda, girl has only had the chance to read the first one and she is like....dannngggg... ~laughs~
Keeper- The Keeper of flicka 20:19:25 pm CDT
Indeed snowrose, it is people's imagination, that change, craft and create stories. Stories evolve, change and develop or they die. Like language, English is still changing, evolving and developing. When it stops doing that it will be a dead language like Latin.
Lita, Physician 20:19:59 pm CDT
I was told that He wrote the first book on a bet with a friend. He was a Professor of Philosophy, and he and the friend bet him he couldn't write anything that would get published, so he did.
Bretval, Merchant 20:20:18 pm CDT
The different cultures are merely variations of the main theme, Sheadon... chains and whips
Sheadon~ Pirate 20:24:35 pm CDT
every one has good points...
Bretval, Merchant 20:25:27 pm CDT
In the one article that I found of the Philosopher there was one (1) book listed... on BDSM... there may be others somewhere
Lita, Physician 20:26:53 pm CDT
Bretval, I believe He also wrote a book called "Imaginative Sex"
Sheadon~ Pirate 20:27:05 pm CDT
so really its how well someone knows the books.. as to being right or wrong in Gor
Bretval, Merchant 20:28:24 pm CDT
Oh yes... that one... same subject I believe
jira{MT} 20:28:31 pm CDT
Was told John Norman did not write the books alone that His students help to write them is why some books flip flop with issues like blackwine
zoya~{Thadron} 20:31:59 pm CDT
zoya doesn't see it as a right or wrong thing, Master Sheadon, it's about learning...about one's self
Bretval, Merchant 20:32:31 pm CDT
again cultural variations of the theme... how many ways are there to serve coffee? 5...10....20?
Lita, Physician 20:33:06 pm CDT
Yes, here is a list of his non-fiction works: Values and Imperatives: Studies in Ethics. (1969) [as John Lange, ed.; written by C. I. Lewis] ISBN 0-8047-0687-5
The Cognitivity Paradox: An Inquiry Concerning the Claims of Philosophy (1970) [as John Lange] ISBN 0-691-07159-4
Imaginative Sex (1974) ISBN 0-7592-1728-9
The Philosophy of Historiography (2010) [as John Lange] ISBN 1-61756-130-4 Philosophy and the Challenge of the Future (2012) [as John Lange] ISBN 1-61756-733-7
Dak 20:33:28 pm CDT
I am reading book 24 , for the second time right now, of the newest books, actually book 26 was the best for Me, 27, had something new in it
Lita, Physician 20:34:25 pm CDT
Pretty much, Sheadon
Keeper- The Keeper of flicka 20:34:53 pm CDT
Sheadon, The idiot savant in Rainman could quote the entire phonebook, so if you can quote the entire works of John Norman, does that automatically make you a good Master, or indeed a good slave?
Lita, Physician 20:35:29 pm CDT
I saw on Wikipedia that there were to be two new Gor books published in 2012.
Sheadon~ Pirate 20:35:45 pm CDT
good point but if i read the books and.. some other Master reads the books I may punish difrently as to the other Master.. now how doe We know which is the right way...
Lita, Physician 20:36:24 pm CDT
No, Jarl Keeper, but it DOES make you a knowledgeable one.
Bretval, Merchant 20:38:19 pm CDT
So 5 serious books and 30 of Gor...
Sheadon~ Pirate 20:38:40 pm CDT
thank you Lita My words exactly
Keeper- The Keeper of flicka 20:39:11 pm CDT
Lita, that would depend on your definition of knowledge. Quoting chapter and verse or demonstrating deeper understanding.
natira{GS} 20:39:28 pm CDT
didn't Tarl always change things up from what was considered the norm throughout the books? therefore why would it be that there should only be one right way to punish a slave let alone do things? it was not that way in the books. Tarl was constantly turning tradition on its head if natira remembers correctly
Dak 20:40:02 pm CDT
Time Salve was a good book to read, also
Bretval, Merchant 20:40:20 pm CDT
Masters are always right... just styles vary
Sheadon~ Pirate 20:41:02 pm CDT
as a qoute G I joe knowing is half the battle.. the other half is up to you on which one you want to be... slave or Master/Free
Lita, Physician 20:41:05 pm CDT
You both could be right, Sheadon. There are often many ways to do something presented in the books. But with some things, there are limits. For example. there is a substitute for tobacco called kanda. the leaves may be chewed, but the roots are poisonous, and it only grows in arid regions. I once saw a slave try to commit suicide in a home in Schendi, a jngle region, by running out into the garden, eating a kanda leaf, and supposedly dying. She only made a fool of herself because kcanda doesn't grow in jungle regions,. and it is the roots, not the leaves, that are poisonous. Not to mention that a slave doesn't even owon her own life, and therefore has no right to dispose of it.
Keeper- The Keeper of flicka 20:41:51 pm CDT
Leaning back on My furs. Aquila non captat muscas.
Dak 20:41:58 pm CDT
I don't remember Tarl punishing a slave much other than whipping , but in Nomads He did use a dung sack, *smiles*
Lita, Physician 20:43:00 pm CDT
Jarl Keeper, one has to have the knowledge before one can acquire an understanding of it, deep or shallow
Bretval, Merchant 20:43:38 pm CDT
and how do you punish the successful suicide?
Lita, Physician 20:44:21 pm CDT
True, Dak. And one of the First Girls in the books had a slave goad, similar to a cattle prod, that she used in training slavess
Lita, Physician Dak 20:44:38 pm CDT
I've never heard of a punishment for that, only for attempting it , *smiles*
natira{GS} 20:45:07 pm CDT
in the early books Tarl was more prone to give a slave her freedom as opposed to keeping her slave. odd as that was
flicka, slave of Keeper. 20:45:28 pm CDT
Master Bretval, there are some people who would think their imaginary friend would punish them , ~thinking of The Ferryman and the River Styx
Lita, Physician 20:46:25 pm CDT
Bretval, I don't recall any "successful" suicides in the books. And don't even recall any attempts.
Bretval, Merchant 20:47:39 pm CDT
actually Sheadon it was common infratryman General Issue soldier
Keeper- The Keeper of flicka 20:48:20 pm CDT
Lita; Depending on person's intellect, surely understanding is acquired with knowledge. The level of understanding comes with the ability synthesise the information into something usable.
Lita, Physician 20:48:37 pm CDT
Now flicka,one of the voices in My head is a therapist, and it declares that i am quite sane! And it wold not allow Me to even attempt suicide, for any reason!
Bretval, Merchant 20:48:42 pm CDT
you are right, flicka *LOL*
Lita, Physician 20:49:23 pm CDT
True, Jarl Keeper. But you can't have understanding without knowledge
flicka, slave of Keeper. 20:49:51 pm CDT
thank you Master Sheadon, but, with respect, this girl does not gain her philosophy from a cartoon character.
lilith {GS} 20:51:26 pm CDT
flicka it is how what is said is interpreted...not if it is a cartoon or a show on the history channel...
flicka, slave of Keeper. 20:52:16 pm CDT
Mistress Lita, a girl was refering to the Christian belief that God will punish a suicide by refusing them entrance to heaven
jira{MT} 20:54:51 pm CDT
*listens quietly*
flicka, slave of Keeper. 20:55:59 pm CDT
~laughing~ Mistress a girl just did not know how to put it in a way that would not offend petty minded people.
Dak 20:57:15 pm CDT
well, if there is nothing else, I will clos the forum, and thank all for coming and participating in the forum , *smiles*, thanks karinda for scribing
karinda {GS} 20:57:52 pm CDT
thank You, Master Dak for leading forum this night.