What does a pledge mean?
Rollo the Ax~~~ the first topic is this carry over from last week... ** What does a pledge at GS mean? To a FM? To a FW? **
penny{Kyo}~~~ *listening, curious to hear the opinions of the Free*
Emerald Forest~~~ *it means different to each and every person,but the main thing it means it that You folow the rules of where You pledge,then after that each takes His or Her own path*
Paedur of Culai~~~ Tal. Enters to hear the discusiioon of the evening.
Mandi~~~ Is not A/any I/individual who even logs in here subject to those same "rules" and decisions of the Council of Captains? That definition makes the pledge of any Free simply an administrative matter, doesn't it?
Kayla~~~ I take it as more than the rules but the deep desire of being of a place. To put it first heart mind and soul before My own personal needs and wants....
Emerald Forest~~~ *yes there are Mandi,but it just means that where You pledge is now Your home and as Your home You try to keep the rules working,but as someone that dosen't pledge here then They really don't care whether someone follows the rules or not*
Kyoto~~~ *Gives melina and the rest of the girls a wink as I grab pen and carry her to my chair upon the dais... settling the rambunctious red head upon my lap as I listen to the topic of discussion.*
Kovak~~~ chuckles,,The pledge mean to me,,you still got to pay for your drinks until you reached a spot on the Coinil but it means you found a place where you know you can come to reflex we all must have a place like that & a place to learn more about gor ...
Rok~~~ pledging a Home, as EF said, has different meaning for each person that is in here tonight. For Me, it is making a commitment. A commitment to uphold the values and rules of a certain group that O/one chooses to call Home. It is standing by those that are pledged ith You, even if You believe They are wrong. It is supporting each other, drawing from thier strengths, and helping shore up each others weaknesses. It is being a family.
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ Aye Rok...I agree..You make some very good points. It is something that should not be taken lightly...
Rok~~~ *nods* nay, it should not be...it should be something that comes from the heart.
melina{GS}~~~ *listens to the avid discussion*
penny{Kyo}~~~ *listening and nodding agreement with Master Rok*
penny thinks that a pledge is not only a committment, it is a promise... a promise to be there for your home, and all in it, no matter what the circumstances... it's like with any other family... one may not like all of one's siblings, but you love them and defend them, no matter what...
Asellus~~~ This "even if they are wrong" bit, Rok, intrigues Me. *listening, not sure how to word what She wants to say or ask*
Paedur of Culai~~~ Is not a pledge to anything, something that comes from the heart. Something that O/one so believes in T/they offer T/themselves to it. Be it an idea like freedom, or a homestone, or a person. That pledge is not something taken lightly, as it should mean that it is for all time, regardless of issue or task or time?
Mandi~~~ I would hope that a Home would function something as a "family," and that if a Home accepts the Pledge of One, there is some reasonable expectation that at least a Handful of People on Gor exist as to Whom one does not have to be wary, or at least on the level of a mild yellow alert as opposed to a red alert.
Asellus~~~ *smiling wryly at Mandi*
Mandi~~~ Praedur, I agree that You state what a pledge Should mean in the abstract and what a pledge actually means in this corner of online Gor are two entirely different questions. I would hope there is some overlap. Does a pledge go both ways or only one?
Emerald Forest~~~ *A pledge to Me as a Warrior means that I will defend it with My steel and My blood*
Rollo the Ax~~~ From My point of view... a pledge is a promise given... freely, of your own Free will... and like any such promise, should NEVER be done lightly or without much thought... it is not just " Hey guys, can I join your team?? Huh, can I play too?? "" It is standing up, and taking a stand... and offering your our honor and word to abide by the rules...to follow orders...to lay down your life if needed... I pledged to My wedding vows over 30 yrs ago... they stand... I pledged My life when I volinterred in the Military... and I pledged My support of GS when the place opened...
Kovak~~~ To one dergee you must be alert to what is going on around you if not the cold steel will be felt what ever shape the steel maybe,,,Good thing I'm not of the maetl workers or I be even more carzy then Iam now ,,,chuckles
melina{GS}~~~ *laughs softly at Master Kovak's words*
Paedur of Culai~~~ Mandi, A pledge is something that has to go both ways. Why should My view of what a pledge stands for, not be applicable here. I mean this world is supposed to be based on honor, strength, steel, and blood. Much like any Military establishment. So why would that pledge to My fellow Marines be taken any higher or lower to any pledge I would make to a homestone, or to a person or individual, or to an idea that I believe in? Why should it be differnt here?
Mandi~~~ It should not be different here or any other place, Paedur.
Rollo the Ax~~~ Yes... we have tried to make GS a place that can be a * home * to many here in on-line Gor... and Yes, I consider many here like * family *... but lets also face facts... even families have problems.. there is always that cousin that is a loser.. or the aunt that is is crazy.. or uncle that is a bastard... hell.. brothers and sons that leave lots to be desired... LIFE is not all sunshine and roses... but it IS LIFE....
Kayla~~~ I agree Paedur ~smiles~ It does compliment each other in that the basis is the same...
Paedur of Culai~~~ Then Why is it Mandi? Why is it accepted here to pledge adn then reomove O/one's pledge at a whim? A better chat site, a difficult issue, a problem with one single individual? If it means so much, then it should mean much, but if it means so little as to make excuses for why it can't be that way, then why bother making a pledge?
Paedur of Culai~~~ In the Corp, when there was a personal issue between Men, they usually found a place and fought it out, and then went out to get drunk together. We would take bullets for each other, give Our own blood, carry men out of battle, dead or alive. Simply becasue of a pledge to Honor, God, Corp and Country. It is what appeals to Me most of Gor, is that Pledge. To be amoungst Men I would die for, and know they would die for Me.
Emerald Forest~~~ *because Paedur,people are people and they sometimes makes mistakes,when They first pledge,They think that the place They pledge to is great,but then someone comes along that They do not like or do not respond to to well and then They take Their pledge back instead of trying to sort it out*
Mandi~~~ Paedur, I do not know You well enough to discuss the specifics as to this site, unless I know You somewhere else and simply do not recognize You. One of the issues is that in this online venue, People come in for different reasons, and for Some it is merely a game, for Some it has some meaning. It is very confusing to combine the two types of People in one place.
penny{Kyo}~~~ *listening to Master Rollo*
Exactly.. we don't pick and choose our families, but we don't desert them because we get grumpy, or they're totally mental... *grinning* Or we shouldn't, anyway....
Well, as for the promise bit... one doesn't promise their children that they'll go out for ice cream and not take them... just like one doesn't make a pledge to a site and then rescind it because one doesn't feel like honoring it that day...
Rok~~~ *nods at EF's words*
Rollo the Ax~~~ Paedur... there should not be different levels of pledges... and yes, it should always be a give and take situation... but even like any military group... the needs of the many, often outweigh the needs of the one, or few... but those that joined should have known that going in... *MY* idea or position on just how things ought to be run or handled is not myopic.. maybe as a very young man I might have been the guy that agreed with the * Love it or LEAVE it * idea... but one must also be willing to temper such thoughts with the added idea of * change it or LOSE it * also....
Paedur of Culai~~~ Sorry Emerald Forest, but ignorance is no excuse. and stupidity is far less. So I do not accept Your reasoning that they make a mistake. If they knew what it measn and stood for then the decision would be made correctly. Much like a collar means in the BDSM world, or I suspect what a K'olar means here.
Asellus~~~ I understand that, penny. However, families aren't necessarily chosen whereas this is VT the person behind the monitor does choose to pledge here. Families aren't hypothetically escapable, but this is easier to escape from. There is more 'freedom,' in a sense, here before and after pledging....
Paedur of Culai~~~ Rollo, Tal, and do notice I did not say anything about the "Love it or Leave it" mentality, and how it applies to living together, and being individuals in a group. But ultimately the tie that binds is the Honor, and the Pledge above it all. Differences are differences, which is human nature and will not ever change. This is not King Arthurs world and vision of Perfection.
Mandi, I am not of GOR here, so I understand that We dont know Each Other well enough.
Emerald Forest~~~ *but Paedur,what happens if YOu buy a bosk to mate with Your other bosks and He dosen't perform like You thought,You would get rid of Him and try for another,that is the sort of mistake I am talking about to do with pledges as You can never tell what the future holds*
penny{Kyo}~~~ *listening to Mistress Asellus*
Well, escapable it may be, but that is why perhaps people should consider carefully before making a pledge, be it here or anywhere...
penny doesn't say she's going for a walk with the kids if she isn't going to do it... if one makes a promise, one should try to adhere to it, whether or not one particularly likes what one has promised to do...
Kovak~~~ ignorance,, stupidity are what many have not everone is born the smartst of the class,,if there is no lesser only greater there would be fun in this world even the dimst of light there something to be seen in them...
Rollo the Ax~~~ Paedur... That is the way of warriors... but you would also have to admit that even in the military, there wer those that had the rank or position, but not the honor... ring knockers that treated their men as little more than stepping stones to higher rank... men who bought there success with the blood of of our brothers... and when needed, advanced themselves by ruining other warriors honor or good name... Ideals are fine.. but the REAL world will bite you in the ass .....
Asellus~~~ Oh, I agree, penny.
But some might view a virtual pledge made online as an alternate method, to...hmmmm....I don't know....whatever their motives for doing so might be. Not everyone views a pledge as something that should be revered. That cannot be helped. There will always be weaker pledges as there will always be weaker individuals....
Paedur of Culai~~~ Emerald Forest, I think Your example is a bit simple dot You. For the bosk doesn't make the decision to be purchased, or set out to mate? It is mearly an animal and so behaves such. But with a Man, many moons ago, His word was His Bond. and His Pledge taken the same. And it is His decision to give the pledge. The bosk has no mind, just to eat, shit, and mate.
Paedur of Culai~~~ Rollo, yes You are corect, but then the real world is not GOR.
Kovak, I would like to correct You on something. Ignorance does not impart stupidity. Ignorance is simply the lack of understanding and learning. Stupidity is the incapability to understand or learn, even after being shown the way.
Emerald Forest~~~ *no I mean the mistake that someone makes when purchasing the bosk thinking that He will perform as a pledge is given to a site thinking that everybody in it You will get on with over a period of time but then after a period of time You realise that You do not get on with a few people and then You take Your pledge back*
Asellus~~~ Above all, I personally feel, that the attempts to define the words 'pledge' or even 'honour' are null and void when compared next to your actions. Actions speak the loudest. What one does when he or she suspects no one is watching, etcetera. Deep down....you know what you are concealing....you know what your motivations are. You know the worth of your pledge and what you bring to what, who, or where you pledge.
Mandi~~~ Emerald, would You not seek redress from the Merchant or Rancher Whose word that the bosk was indeed a fertile bosk, or would You merely find another bosk and gift that one to the Tavern for the next week's supply of stew?
penny{Kyo}~~~ Exactly, Mistress Asellus.. actions speak louder than words. End of story.
Paedur of Culai~~~ Then Emerald Forest, One who purchases the bosk, doesn't understand the bosk, and does not take into the effort of understanding that an animal is an animal, nothing more or less. But A Man is much more than a mere Man. Are You saying We should hold Men to the goals and expectations of bosk's then?
Rollo the Ax~~~ I guess what needs to be discussed is the idea that yes, one should not pledge until they are SURE... and should the time come when they change their minds and no longer feel they can honor that pledge, they should recind it, and perhaps move on... there is no dishonor in changing your mind... only in changing it, and then working to destroy that which you once said you loved or protected... simply put.... * if it ain't Home no more, find a NEW home.. *
Emerald Forest~~~ *I would do the second part Mandi LOL,of course not Paedur,all I am saying is people make mistakes and thats all*
Kyoto~~~ *Thinks that the goals of a bosk might not be so bad... eat, eat, eat... walk around for a bit, ogle the cows... jump on the cows, eat some more, go to sleep...*
fallen~angel{Stan}~~~ tiz like one should visit as a Free for the first time and UNTIL she really knows for sure that its a slave she wishes to be....after all once a slave always a slave....
Mandi~~~ The lofty discussions of valor and honor and so forth are less an indication than the simple act of keeping One's Word, or not keeping One's Word. Even online.
Asellus~~~ Mm-hmm. *nodding at Mandi* Shouldn't that be enough? As simple as that.
fallen~angel{Stan}~~~ in real life a girl does not visit a town say for the first time and say Oh i am going to live here now and move in automatically, she wants to make sure she likes the town and the people who inhabit the town.....why make a home somewhere without first checking it out. Only makes you look like a dickhead when you move so quickly
Kyoto~~~ On the serious side, I agree with you Rollo, if you feel enough love for a place to pledge to defend it and uphold the rules, why then work to tear it down? It's fine to disagree, hell, only cattle follow blindly. But when you find that you can no longer come in without feeling the need to argue and cause disent, then it's time to move on because, if it were me, that much crap would cause me to get high blood pressure. Ok, it would make my already high bp even worse.
Kovak~~~ chuckles........No matter what word you use the end means the same it just how you view the matter..if it walks like a fool,talks like a fool,,,the odd are it a fool no matter what label it put on it ..
Mandi~~~ That's what it comes down to, Asellus, be it an individual or a Home.
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ ~listening to Master Kyoto and nodding head.. agreeing with the high blood pressure part.. knowing..~
Mandi~~~ *smiling at fa through veils*
Paedur of Culai~~~ inks to Emerald Forest. Pardon Me if I have made the illusion less than You intended. I just know that We have a choice of free will, where as no other living thing in the world does. And I cherish that freedom to make the right choices as I see them. So to Me, a pledge is making the ultimate right choice, and if it is wrong, then I must live with it. if I amy, I see so many "velcro" collar, where the Dominant and the submissive simply do not even try to make it work. I see that as a pledge as w (???)
fallen~angel{Stan}~~~ Misress Sioux Princess, You may feel that is so but its the rules of this particular room *smiles warmly* fa has no control over that.
Rollo the Ax~~~ Nodding to the FW Asellus... well said and quite insightfull, FW... pledges are nothing more than a promise.. and many people don't keep them in RT, so why should we expect everybody to keep them here in VT ??? Ain't NEVER gonna happen... Also, you are SO RIGHT... ACTIONS not words.... and CONSISTANCY of the same... We ALL hide that animal deep down within our minds... that beast that knows no rules and wants ONLY what IT wants... It is how well we each control that beast that makes us who we are.... all the ills of mankind are with each of us... greed, hate, lust, envy... some let them pop out now and then... and then wonder why they are thought poorly of ???? LOL...LOL..
Emerald Forest~~~ *well I wish a lot of people saw it Your way then Paedur as some do not do it that way,They just drop the pledge and go to another,but why stay if You are not happy*
Asellus~~~ Also...it seems a bit silly to talk of happiness online. After all, isn't this chat room for entertainment purposes anyway? I mean, there's the leave button if you are not having a good time or if you feel your blood pressure rising. *smiling briefly at Kyoto and jasma* Worry about your RT health first, please. The tavern *can* wait.
Rollo the Ax~~~ Heros ?? Honor ?? Valor ?? Too many people think of these things like out of movies.. the REAL life world is not like that folks...
Mandi~~~ Asellus, You are correct about the leave button.
And using it is not "letting the Other Guy 'win'" or some such nonsense.
Paedur of Culai~~~ Emerald Forest, if You do not experience sadness, then how do You know what happiness is, if Your heart has never been broken, then how do You know what love is? Being unhappy simply means You have to put forth the effort to make it happy once again. Once You have given Your all, then I will conceed that it is time to move on. But some giving all, means they have died for That ideal. So that is how I see a pledge, a collar, a kolar, a marriage. It is given when I am willing to die for those words
Asellus~~~ *nods at Mandi*
Kyoto~~~ That's why I am often as not exiting in a hurry... or not coming in at all. It's not worth it. As much as I love GS, my life, my family, they are much more important to me.
Kovak~~~ We all here have seen many homes fall to the dust,,Many of them we still think of to this day..Still which ever home you make to be your still must stay within the rules which have been set..there are time that the odd case done arise still must keep within those line if not then the rules are meanless it just another site poeple will not want to make it there home
Emerald Forest~~~ *I feel the same way as You Paedur,but not all do*
Rollo the Ax~~~ LOL...LOL.. Asellus, that is so much easier said than done... Once one has pledged to work for the tavern, to do everything within their ability to make GS the best they can... health often takes aback seat... LOL.. until y'all fall over or can't get out of bed....LOL...LOL.. been there, done that... and you know what some ppl suggest ???? get a cordless keyboard so you could still be on-line while in bed !!!! LOL...LOL.. some folks just ain't happy till you open a vein....LOL...LOL..
Paedur of Culai~~~ Pardon My keyboard and leaving letters out Emerald Forest. It, like Me, is very old. I see We do agree on the matter finally. Laughs hard.
Asellus~~~ *smiling with understanding to the Senior Captain*
I can sympathize, Captain; when is this fun for Rollo, I wonder?
Emerald Forest~~~ *true Paedur*
kasandra{GS}~~~ *hearing Master Paedur's words, her heart sings with glee as the views of the Gor she once knew are echoed there in*
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ ~smiling softly hearing Mistress Asellus words and then Master Rollo's response.. nodding head in agreement with the giant Torvaldslander.. knowing He's right.. and yet.. also know Mistress is right as well.. ~
Paedur of Culai~~~ Nods to Rollo, as I hear Him speak of things I know all to well.
I am not of GOR or GS here kasandra, but I am none the less honored to think that I have the right idea.
Rollo the Ax~~~ LOL...LOL... Asellus.???? when there is no longer any fun, there is always DUTY..... one learns to expect less and takes heart in doing what is needed... LOL...LOL.. often funny is as close to fun as it gets....LOL....
Asellus~~~ *Smiling affectionately at Rollo*
I appreciate what you do to keep the tavern running nonetheless, Captain.
Paedur of Culai~~~ Rollo took on the responsibilty when He pledged, and accepted His position and role. That is His decision and so that is His fun as well. Along with all the rights and responsibilities and benefits that go along with it.
Rollo the Ax~~~ True... many folks think that the old say that * Rank has its Privilage * is the reason some seek rank or position... but what many don't realize is that it is more accurate to say * Rank has its Responsibilty * is more true... at least for those that take the job seriously... like I said before.. rank does NOT make a leader or officer...
Paedur of Culai~~~ Agrees with Rollo, completely, on Rank has its Responsibilities. and that Rank does not make an officer, His men do.
Rollo the Ax~~~ Well, folks... it looks like our time is up... we will have to carry over the other topic about the 26th book again next week...
Emerald Forest~~~ *good forum Captain*
jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ thank You again Master Rollo for a wonderful forum..
fallen~angel{Stan}~~~ thank You for allowing this one to sit in on Your forum.
penny{Kyo}~~~ *grateful smiles to Master Rollo*
Thank you for taking the time to be here, and please give your property enormous hugs from penny!
Rollo the Ax~~~ LOL...LOL.. Well, we have had better... but then I guess we have had worse also....LOL...LOL... Emerald Forest...LOL.. anything you can walk away from is good...LOL..
Paedur of Culai~~~ Thank You Kayla and desiree for the invitation. I do apologize for being at times far to vocal. I guess the times and events make Me so.
Rollo the Ax~~~ fallen angel... everybody is welcome to visit during the forums ... as long as they play by the rules...and you have done so well... you are most welcome to visit again....
Emerald Forest~~~ *true Captain LOL*
Kayla~~~ Thank You for coming and sharing My Friend... Please feel welcome to come again and not just for Forums ~soft smiles at Paedur~