Titles, Ranks, and Greeting Order
Rollo the Ax~~~ Well, folks..... How about we get this forum started???? The same rules as always, PM Me if you have a topic, I'll tell who gets what order or turn, let’s keep the open cross talk and such to a MINUMUM for those that are keeping the records, no serving, no begging to enter.... etc., etc., etc..........
Rollo the Ax~~~ LOL.. Okay, we have a first topic... Proper forms of address for Gorean dignitaries. Locally, Captains and Captain Emeritus, but occasionally I see a Tatrix, a Jarl, or Ubar, etc. I would guess that the question is "What is the * proper * order or ranking??” Or how to greet, rank, etc.?????
Cernus~~~ Well for the Ubar, the only Ubar I knew was Kirata of The Gates of Ar, and I addressed Him as My Ubar.
Kyoto~~~ Well, of course, the council members of GS have first priority in any greetings. Then, if the slave knows who the dignitary is, address him or her as appropriate to his or her rank...followed by all others as established in the protocols.
Mandi~~~ I suppose the order of greeting is even more of an issue for slaves than for Free. I wish to show Everyone the respect His or Her ranks should be shown, and will frequently place the title and the name together until the Person states a preference.
Rollo the Ax~~~ That is the way I would see it, or more to the point, for slaves, it is VERY important to keep such ranks, or titles in mind... But really folks, if a Free person didn't * greet * in the proper order, or such, what would the big deal be???? I mean, sure, it does go to showing respect to a certain degree... but ANYBODY that is so thin skinned, or up themselves to the point that they would make a big deal out of being greeted or acknowledged before OR after some other person of position is, * in MY humble opinion * a dip stick, and so who gives a urts ass?????
Errand Knight~~~ Has always greeted Council, Advisors, Pledgees and then others in that order....though tend to try to make visitors feel especially welcome....Assassins aside.
Bolt Sarakai~~~ I believe it is a mark of respect to greet those of rank first, and then the others that are in the Tavern...I will generally also address a Ubar or Jarl by their title first time I speak, and the last time I speak with them.
Mandi~~~ ~~looking to Errand Knight~~ I am never sure what do make of Assassins. I assume that They do not act out of random rancour, but only for the gold, just hope I'm not on Their "to kill" list that day.
Kyoto~~~ Well, when you put it that way, EK, Saan, the Vizier of Tor, is also of the black caste...
Asellus~~~ *musing as She writes* I've always wondered as to the reasoning behind that particular rule on greeting orders. I correct a slave simply because it is a rule, but I never understood...other than for purposes of respect....why it is necessary?
Kayla~~~ I have found that most Free don't know so their slaves don't know the correct order of greeting... I think it is important for Free and slaves alike.
Errand Knight~~~ Mandi, it’s sometimes hard to discern whether the mark on the forehead is present.
Errand Knight~~~ Kyoto, thanks for the advice, Friend
inara{G}t~~~ *thinks there should be a page, so those of us who don't know, will.*
Kayla~~~ there is inara.
Asellus~~~ There is a page, inara. The tavern homepage lists such.
inara{G}t~~~ *nods hearing Mistress Kayla, not remembering seeing it, will have to search for it.*
Kyoto~~~ inara, do you mean a page regarding addressing visitors or in general?
Errand Knight~~~ So is there a protocol in relation to black robed Ones?
Bolt Sarakai~~~ In my opinion, Asellus, the ruling body of a room, or site, has complete authority of the place where one enters. It is therefore they who makes all the decisions, so it would be worth a slave especially knowing who is in control and who to acknowledge first. But I guess it all comes down to feelings, and some are easily hurt...And as the Senior Captain said, I don’t really give an urts arse. Those who control the room will always do so regardless when they are greeted.
inara{G}t~~~ Master Kyoto.........one that explains what the titles are and what they are called. This one is very new to Gor and has not read the books.
shirin{SholGar}~~~ from the slave manual...
2) Greetings
Slaves are expected to greet all Free Persons both when they enter the tavern and when Free Persons exit the tavern. First you will greet the Captains of Gorean Shores if any are present, in this order specifically: Master Rollo the Ax (Senior Captain), Master Marius (First Sword), and Master SabreWolf (Slave Master), Master Bolt Sarakai (Second Sword), Master Shadowglade (Captain of the Guard), and Master Ceredigawn Durst (Captain of the Arsenal and Fleets). Next, you will greet any Advisors of Gorean Shores if they are present, in this order: Master Lemuel and/or Mistress Kayla. Next you will greet Pledged Patrons of the Tavern (please see Pledged Patrons for a full listing), then other Masters in the tavern. Next you will greet any Free Women of the tavern. Lastly, you may greet your sisters and brothers, but do not greet sisters until they have permission to enter and are in the tavern. You should thank the person who allowed you to enter when you greet them.
For personally owned kajira if your Master/Mistress is in the room and they are the One that granted entry, greet Them first and ask permission to greet the others. If they're not in the Tavern, please follow the above order of greeting as well. Also after getting permission to greet use the above order of greeting too.
Asellus~~~ That's what I'm saying, though, Bolt. Unless One feels it is of strictest importance, then why bother? I mean, sure the girls and any other Visitor, for that matter, need to know who is in "command" via rank, so to speak, but as You and Rollo stated, it is nothing to get in arms about....
Mandi~~~ When I am speaking with Someone with a first and last name included in Their online name, it really depends on What seems to be Their preference as to whether I use both, or one or the other.
Bolt Sarakai~~~ But that’s it as well, Asellus...Slaves are controlled and under mastery, so we institute protocols and rules for them to follow...This is just one of them.
A good pull out, shirin.
Gornt~~~ “I love you, will you marry Me” is not a proper greeting.
Kyoto~~~ Hmmm...
*rubbing my chin as I consider what inara said*
I don't know if there is one and there are so many titles, each endemic to the tribe, city, ethnic group, etc that uses them.
*thinking*
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ Hmmm...I think that it keeps the girls in line, and they should know in what order the Men of this tavern rank..
Gornt~~~ That’s easy--Warriors are first everywhere.
Asellus~~~ *shrugs softly, scribbling swiftly, biting Her tongue*
Cernus~~~ *shakes head*.....the girls are half terrified already to speak, now you wish to have them know our tavern rank....
Kayla~~~ If Someone uses Lord or Master in His name I will not use it, for I will not call any Man Master or Lord... LOL... Call it a quirk of Mine *S*
Rollo the Ax~~~ LOL...LOL…My friends... As I said, as far as I am concerned, YES, in GS it DOES matter what order slaves greet ... but in other sites, maybe it doesn't?? As for Assasins?? LOL. This is Port Kar, as long as they * behave * themselves and don't break any of the GS rules, they are as welcome as ANYBODY... but then, they don't deserve any more or less respect or such either...
Mandi~~~ ~~agreeing with Kayla~~ Same would probably go for Jarl, though I have seen Free Men and Women go ahead and use it in a greeting if it is in the online handle.
Gornt~~~ I always greet the Captains first, then the Warriors, then the builders since we have no Scribes, then the Women starting with Kayla because She is an Advisor.
Bolt Sarakai~~~ Gornt, actually, the Warrior Caste is the lowest of the High Castes--we have Initiates, then Scribes, then Builders and Physicians...Although there are a few discrepancies between Builders and Physicians in the books ~grins~
Gornt~~~ I see, Captain, then I am wrong, nothing unusual there.
Mandi~~~ ::chuckles at Gornt:: I think that Patrons are evenly ranked, and You are not wrong. There are no definitive order amoung categories.
galah{RA}~~~ As GS does have more captains than ever before, it does make it difficult to know the order though, the first couple positions are easy as everyone seems to know the Sr. Captain and the First Sword, and after that was to be the slave Master and even galah is not sure whom that is anymore...so if all the captains were in GS, a girl is to know what seat they hold on the council?
Bolt Sarakai~~~ It is only learning Gornt, not aimed at you specifically...But besides that again, Port Kar is one, if not the only city that does not have a High Council, which is made up of delegates from each of the High Castes...So, Caste is not as important in Port Kar in the ranking terms, And that means ~laughs~ greet in any order you want...
galah{RA}~~~ another lil question that was answered long ago, galah would like to know if this is still the same answer...she always thought to call one say "greetings Captain Rollo" was of even more respect than saying "greetings Master Rollo" but at that time, she was told no...Please explain.
Rollo the Ax~~~ LOL…LOL…Asellus, that is the crux of the matter.... We all agree that for the slaves, it IS a BIG DEAL.... But as Free persons, who has the right to tell Us, any of us, just * who * we should say * Hi * to first????? A moot point as far as I am concerned.... BUT there ARE people that get their panties in a bunch if they feel that their * TITLE * or rank is not "respected??"... I'll let y’all in on a little secret... Titles are only fancy names for folks that want to feel * special * in My opinion, and rank might well be given out for any reason, but no matter WHAT the rank is, it is ONLY another fancy name UNTIL it is EARNED!!!! When I was in the service, I had officers that had the titles, but never earned the respect, and I had non-coms that had MORE right to the title of LEADER then all those ring knockers put together....
Bolt Sarakai~~~ In my opinion, galah, regardless of a Free's position or title they are to a slave just this--Master/Mistress...It is for the Free to address other Free by their title or position, if that is their desire...
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ Well said, Rollo...
Mandi~~~ ~~listens thoughtfully to galah's question, as it is a good one for a girl to ask, and listening for the response~~
Cernus~~~ At last someone has stated what I am thinking ...bravo Rollo, so correct on the title thing...
Asellus~~~ Right, Rollo, I agree two-fold, but that is for the Free's ears. The slaves need to know, and the knowledge needs to be embedded, is the Greeting Order rule to be a strict one or a half-assed rule that can be ignored when not done properly? Again, for the benefits of the slaves....
Mandi~~~ ::chuckling:: I refer to the other Free Women by Title, Name, Caste, and Some I call "Friend." And it is sometimes a hard line to walk, with Our limitations.
Kyoto~~~ Do you do the same for the men, Mandi?
Rollo the Ax~~~ If I read the GS rules right, the slaves are required to greet in the order of the Council... Captains 1-6 first, then Advisors, first male then female as is the Gorean way... Just what they call each Captain is NOT prescribed... so Master Rollo would be just as good as Captain Rollo, or Senior Captain Rollo... or what ever position.... Okay??????
Gornt~~~ Rollo, no wonder One is called Ax, You cut right through to the meat of the matter
Mandi~~~ Aye, Kyoto, I do address the Men similarly, though possibly with a touch more formality. The formality is not to imply I do not value Their friendship, just do not wish to be too familiar and offend Them.
Asellus~~~ Sounds wise to Me, My Friend. *sharing a smile with Mandi*
sevda{SabreWolf}~~~ Is it wrong to greet a Master by His first name or does that depend on the Man and His feelings on the subject?
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ Does not matter to Me...Master Durst just seems to be a little easier than Master Ceredigawn..but either way is fine with Me...
galah{RA}~~~ Think the rules say that a slave must greet or speak to the Master by last name, but then if a Master was to tell you to greet him by his first name, then that would override the rule?
galah{RA}~~~ This one thinks that it’s hard to know on the names cause many only have one name, galah has heard some even call Master Rollo, Master Ax...thinking that be a last name, but to openly call a Master by his first name if he has an obvious first and second name, this one thinks that makes it seem to familiar with one above a girl, perhaps in the privacy of an alcove the formality could be more simple and open, but galah thinks that last names show more respect
Rollo the Ax~~~ sevda... for a slave, it is the will of the Master... So, if the girl is just meeting him for the first time, she should be formal.... But if the same Master tells the girl to call him * Snooky Pie * from then on, she had better do just that....LOL...LOL.. If He allows it, or gives her permission to greet or call him a certain name, then she should do just that .....
Rollo the Ax~~~ Now, in fact that rule can only be enforced on GS owned slaves and maybe the slaves of pledged patrons... But also, a slave should greet her/his own Master/Mistress first also... so???? Look folks... in a perfect world, things would run perfect... But I sure as hell ain't seen THAT yet.... So in My opinion, or way of looking at shit, if somebody screws up with an honest mistake, they deserve a second chance, and no BIG deal.... if they screw up ON PURPOSE, to start a problem or stir up shit, they deserve every drop of trouble that comes their way... FREE or slave alike.... the only problem with that attitude is trying to know just which case is which.... and once again, to MY thinking, better to err on the side of forgiveness than to hang an innocent ... or maybe * fool Me once, shame on YOU... fool Me twice, shame on ME!!! *
Bolt Sarakai~~~ ~Nods to the words of the Senior Captain~
Forthright and right down the line, Rollo ~laughs~ and then what about the person that lets her in? Will it ever end...
Punishment and Correction: slaves and FW
Asellus~~~ It isn't exactly about hanging innocents, Rollo. Sure, there are polite ways of "reminding" a slave about greeting order, but we also don't want the tavern becoming less harsh. Can't one be punished or corrected without getting their feelings hurt any more?
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ *Looking to His Woman thinking that She took the words right out if His mouth*
Mandi~~~ ~~looking to Asellus in agreement~~ Aye, and role-play it without an undertone of r/t rancour thrown in?
Dak~~~ I think a word in a whisper is far less harsh, and better taken than making it public, and embarrassing the slave about it!
inara{G}t~~~ *thinking it was mentioned, it seems no one really gets punished anymore.*
Gornt~~~ Aye, this is supposed to be an escape, I agree it’s sometimes not easy to leave the day’s "stuff" in the street when One walks into the Tavern, but it should not impact the rest of Us.
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ Really Dak?...Guess what? Gor is harsh...
Mandi~~~ Aye, a valid point, Dak, but Another might handle it differently from that, and Free should not intervene with Other Free, as a general rule.
Asellus~~~ And....why be harsh towards the FW and so gentle on slaves? That's the contradiction that's been aggravating Me, personally. *shrugs, still scribing*
Kyoto~~~ Ohhh, speaking of punishments, I brought a dozen fresh dung sacks in yesterday.
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ Aye Kyoto...I might need those. Sabre told Me to use those if I had too...
Kayla~~~ Not for the 10th time... some never learn...
Dak~~~ I agree, Mandi, and if in question, should ask the other Free in private!
Mandi~~~ ~~listening as the Musician cuts it politely straight~~
Bolt Sarakai~~~ It comes down to one thing, Asellus...And that is to be consistent with either free or slave.
Kovak Broadbelt~~~ There is a line between harshness & cruelty. Getting a bondmaid back in line is one thing, but plain cruelty is another.
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ *Nodding in agreement with Bolt* Well said, Bolt...
Gornt~~~ Yes, to stay within the confines of One's character.
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ True, Kovak...But what some people consider harsh, another person might consider letting a girl off easy....
Mandi~~~ ::chuckling:: I would like to come into the Tavern one night with the whisper box off, though, as We often get off into whisperland and nothing on top to interact with.
Asellus~~~ And, Kovak, a whisper in quiet is hardly cruel.... neither is reminding one aloud about a certain rule. And if a slave wants to whine and cry about THAT....*shaking Her head*...I do not believe she is Gor's loss, to be honest.
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ Interesting, Mandi...*nodding*
Rollo the Ax~~~ Folks, such things are ALWAYS, judgment calls.... in VT or in RT.... telling somebody they messed up is always a problem.... in private they MAY take it better, but if they did something BAD, or again and again, then in public might just embarrass them enough to get it right.... either way, sooner or later somebody is gonna get their feeling hurt.... DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!! Learn and grow, or don't learn and stagnate.....
sevda{SabreWolf}~~~ you are probably right, galah, but with the last names Some have, sev would constantly be in trouble for misspelling the name. So she is very grateful when a Master allows her to call Him by His first name.
Gornt~~~ Whining and crying are posting offenses in My judgment.
Dak~~~ How many do we lose before it becomes important, Asellus?
Bolt Sarakai~~~ Yet, what is cruel, or harsh? In the books a slave could look a Master in the eye and if permission had not been granted, get a severe cuffing...It’s here where we have to draw a line between the books and this online realm...But going this way is like a whole topic in itself...Next forum?
Kayla~~~ We Dak?
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ Lose what, Dak? slaves that don't listen? If a slave is wrong, she is WRONG...If you want to whisper to them, then that is You, but not All Masters handle it that way...Sometimes they need to be disciplined...sometimes talking to them in whispers just isn't enough...
Dak~~~ many have come and gone around here in the last year, Kayla, not only just Mine.
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ And You feel that is because Masters are being too harsh Dak?
Dak~~~ Some are!
shirin{SholGar}~~~ ~*~applauds Master Durst, agreeing completely~*~ shirin feels and knows public corrects work much better ~*~nods, smiling~*~
Asellus~~~ In case You may not read the slave discussion notes, the girls seem to WANT harsher Masters, Dak. So a reminder ALOUD may be what they need.
Kayla~~~ It is a most common mistake to get My order wrong and I will whisper it a few times to girls then I will speak it aloud and embarrass the girl... usually it doesn't go that far... most get it after one or two whispers... I do not tell Free, for I do not feel it that important...
Dak~~~ Still, they don't need to be jumped by everyone over a simple mistake!
galah{RA}~~~ this one notices a definite loss of slaves lately, galah thinks it’s cause of the lack of discipline, and the lack of strong Masters to administer such.
Dak~~~ You still have to remember, slaves in VT Gor volunteer to do this!
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ That is the way You see it, Dak...Your way is right to You...My way is right to Me...
Kovak Broadbelt~~~ Then that call is up to the Free that is dealing with it at the time.
shirin{SholGar}~~~ ~*~shakes her head hearing Master Durst and Master Dak~*~
shirin longs for the rougher Masters, she wishes One *would* jump all over her on lil mistakes...maybe she'll just have to start making big mistakes just to get a reaction ~sighs~
Dak~~~ This is true CD, there is no right or wrong!
Kayla~~~ Dak, GS is stronger than ever... We are not concerned about losing Free or slaves... Please don't worry on Our behalf; We are very happy ~smiles~ It seems Our worst problems come from Non-Pledges... not those that call GS Home ~smiling softly~
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ Hmm...*nodding to galah* Thought so...
sevda{SabreWolf}~~~ It's not just about discipline though, galah, and there is a big difference being punishing a slave and outright embarrassing them.
Rollo the Ax~~~ sevda, there are times that any punishment will embarrass anybody... free or slave alike... there are also times that neither punishment NOR embarrassment are meant to be given or done, but are taken as such.... Hey, NOBODY here is perfect... we all get shit confused or wrong at times.... HOW we all deal with such is the measure of each person....
Asellus~~~ *thinking She read something of the girls petitioning for harsher Masters...something about sandwich boards....*smiling* *
Dak~~~ Exactly, Kovak.
Mandi~~~ And, I would point out that it is HARD AS HELL to respond to a whisper in a role-play zone.
galah{RA}~~~ Well, this may be out of place but perhaps needs to be said...in this one’s humble opinion, a strong Master is what makes a slave’s belly burn, and being openly punished by a FW does not have this effect on a slave. A warning in private might be the first course of action by a FW...but a Master should stomp on the girls head if need be to get her attention.
Kyoto~~~ *Nodding in agreement with galah*
Girls come to Gor knowing it to be a harsh world, a world supposedly run by men, yet, they don't get the discipline they are seeking. Perhaps that is why problems occur.
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ All I know is if you whisper to a slave and tell her that You are not mad, but try not to do it again, then the chances are they probably will...On the other hand…You tell them that you are disappointed and better not see it happen again...What do you think would work better?
shirin{SholGar}~~~ ~*~giggles hearing Mistress Asellus~*~ did we say that?
Bolt Sarakai~~~ And believe me, shirin ~grins harshly~ Any such mistakes in my presence will be dealt with!
I am not here to moddy coddle kajira, they have their place and that is at the feet of the Free. Any transgressions I feel inappropriate as becoming in a kajira, I will discipline.
Rollo the Ax~~~ Okay folks… I may be going out on a limb here, but let’s face a few facts, okay ??? Coming here, on-line, SHOULD be a * fun and relaxing * thing to do.... getting away from RT and such... but far too often, EVERYBODY... (Yours truly included) brings all the baggage and shit here with us... had a bad day, kick a VT slave for little or nothing... pissed off at life in general, snarl and fight with those here... we ALL do it, but that DOESN'T make it right... Or hold a grudge... because somebody did something that pissed you off last year, or last week...??? Come on... lets get real.... if such problems are one offs or happened only once or twice, MOVE ON... give the person a chance to show you that they are not ALL BAD.....but then again, some people just keep on fucking up...over and over again... for those people, there needs to be a point of no return.... But in general, TRY giving the other guy/gal a chance to show y'all that they are not all bad, and move on with life.... Okay??????
Kovak Broadbelt~~~ I've made mistake where its cost me my Freedom. I was put in a ko’lar to serve the Free.
Kayla~~~ Agreed, galah... That is why all the slaves went into HOS kolars... so Sg could bring out the big guns if need be.... LOL... when I say wait till He gets Home it's all over but cleaning up the puddles
Dak~~~ And if a slave is new, and ya don't know the their level of learning?
shirin{SholGar}~~~ Exactly galah! Thank you! ~*~Hoping the Masters are listening and bites her lips and sink down hoping to not disrespect...but *longing* for the fear factor~*~
Kyoto~~~ I agree, Rollo, some people never forget it when a mistake is made... yet they continually make them themselves and expect no one to notice or care.
*shrugging*
Life is too short to worry about what happened a year ago.
Kayla~~~ That is why we have trainers and a FG who are experts in that... they know what they are doing better than Me or You or any other Free... that is why We have them.
Dak~~~ Everyone raises children differently, and decides what works for them.
Kovak Broadbelt~~~ I for one have learned the harsh way of Gor first hand.
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ slaves aren't children, Dak...
Kyoto~~~ Perhaps, but this is a big issue among the slaves. I would hate to see it put on the back burner... we might lose the kajira we have.
Asellus~~~ Right, Ceredigawn....We are talking Gorean Women, here.
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ *Knowing that His Lady must go* Yeah...We went a little over this week..Continue this topic over to next week?
galah{RA}~~~ galah knows in the books that FW hated slaves, but that would make for a most miserable time in VT Gor if that point was re-enacted....one of those online vs. book problems arising its head again, but it would do no one any good to have the FW hate the slaves, or for the slaves to hate the FW for being punished by them...for FW and slaves must both fear the Masters, or should anyway
shirin{SholGar}~~~ ~*~tosses in her mere vote for yes on the fear factor topic for next week~*~
Mandi~~~ ~~hearing galah's words~~::chuckles:: And I think that some of that tension can be effectively role-played without r/t rancour.
Kovak Broadbelt~~~ I found out the harshness of the teacher makes you work hard and learn the beauty of things for what they are.
Bolt Sarakai~~~ Aye, let’s continue this next week. Allow everyone to collect their thoughts and give some well thought out arguments for their points of view ~laughs~
Asellus~~~ Right, galah. I don't as a FW expect to be reprimanded as harshly as a slave would be, but as a Woman, it is still important to be reminded of My place and privilege of existence in Gor.
Kyoto~~~ I agree, galah, all Free Women should fear the Men of the tavern... for the least of the Men is still stronger than any Woman here.
That's what bothers me when I hear a Woman say she will never call a man Master or Jarl. She should know better.
Ceredigawn Durst~~~ Hmm...Very good point, Kyoto...They never know...
Kyoto~~~ They never do... we can all say we'll protect a woman... but if they screw up, even once... their pretty necks are bound to have some new jewelry.
Mandi~~~ Aye, Never say Never. I just cringe, though, when I hear Free Women calling a Man "Master," thinking it to be a gaffe to do so while Free.
Rollo the Ax~~~ Okay, lets call it a night.... the forum is over for today.... we will start with the fear factor topic next week.... LOL…If somebody reminds me.... LOL. Thanks for coming folks... Be Well, and safe till next week....
Bolt Sarakai~~~ As well, I feel, the fear factor topic next forum, should cover both FW and slaves.
Asellus~~~ Thank You, Rollo, Bolt, and Ceredigawn. *nodding as they speak of ending the forum, She jots the last of Her notes down and sighs gently over Her scribbled mass of information, exiting from the tavern.*