Present:
Ramses
Tanthio§
Bretval
Dak
Kazar
Qazir
Kuurus
Lita
snowrose
karma
shimmer
fidget
bria
flicka
Dak 19:37:43 pm CDT
if any have a topic, whisper to Me, and I will open the forum
Dak 19:41:28 pm CDT
I have a topic, I will open the Forum, same rules keep chitchat and greetings to whispers to help out the scribe, *smiles*
First topic
In Gor can a slave actually be raped?
Kuurus 19:43:34 pm CDT
A Gorean takes what He wants
Lita, Physician 19:43:54 pm CDT
In that the slave has no choice as to whether she is used or not, or by Whom, or how she is used, I'd say yes, a slave can be, and sometimes is, raped
Qazir 19:44:19 pm CDT
being that a slave has no right to refuse a free is "rape" just part of living the life
flicka-slave of Keeper 19:44:34 pm CDT
A scenario a girl can think of would be if her Jarl did not wish for her to be used by a particular Free Man, or indeed by Any Free Men, then if she was thusly used it would be rape. But not in the Urthen sense, in that the girl herself has been violated, more in the sense that a Free Man's property has been "interfered" with.
Tanthio§ 19:44:45 pm CDT
Is rape even a word in the Gorean Dictionary?
Kazar~infamous pirate 19:45:34 pm CDT
she is forced on gor not called rape GOR we take what we want
Lita, Physician 19:46:10 pm CDT
Ah slave rape is referred to regularly in the books, Tanthios, even by Free Men
fidget {GS} ~t 19:47:31 pm CDT
~she speaks quietly~
there is a 'slave rape position' in the GS manual
Slave rape position
It is a disciplinary position. It is NOT intended for pleasure. It is because a Master has a purpose and intends to put the girl in her place. His sole purpose is for relief. Habitually violent, there is no time wasted. she is orderd to lay on her back, hands to the floor Explorers of Gor page 202
Tanthio§ 19:47:41 pm CDT
Nods to Lita.. well then that closes that topic *chuckles*
Qazir 19:47:42 pm CDT
Lita in what context is it used in the books
Lita, Physician 19:48:03 pm CDT
Now, slave rape is relatively common, and often accepted, in Peasant villages. "Sometimes the boys had caught us, Thurnus's girls, or those of others, too, and roped us together and raped us in the furrows of the fields, but it had been done in the bullying rowdyism of their youth, having slave girls at their mercy. There had been no intent of insult, or umbrage, in it�This sort of rape is not uncommon in a peasant village. It is usually taken for granted and ignored, save perhaps by the abused girls, but they are only slaves." (Slave Girl of Gor, p.227) So, in of itself, slave rape does not create an insult. But, there is a specific Caste Code provision that deals with the use of another man's property. "Neither a plow, nor a bosk, nor a girl may one man take from another, saving with the owner's saying of it," quoted Thurnus." (Slave Girl of Gor, p.226) Though that seems rather straight forward, its interpretation is not. For not all slave rape violates this Code provision. And the key is the definition of "take." "The rapes of Verr Tail and Radish, interestingly, had not counted as code breaches, though in neither case had explicit permission for their conquest been granted by Thurnus; such permission, in such cases, was implicit in the customs of the community; it did not constitute a 'taking from' but a brief use of, an 'enjoyment of,' without the intent to do injury to the honor of the master; 'taking from,' in the sense of the codes, implies the feature of being done against the presumed will of the master, of infringing his rights, more significantly, of offending his honor."
(Slave Girl of Gor, p.228)
Dak 19:53:28 pm CDT
do we need to go further with this topic?
Kuurus 19:53:40 pm CDT
Nope
Qazir 19:54:12 pm CDT
I feel it is covered
Dak 19:54:51 pm CDT
ok, next topic
Hate/Rebellion dances: These dances are not described much though it is obvious they are meant to show certain emotions. They allow a girl to show hatred and rebellion toward their master but that is not how they will end. Each of these dances conclude with the ultimate surrender of the girl to her Master as his love slave. Like the command, "show rebellion," these can be cruel dances to make a girl dance. It is said that the greatest form of love that exists is between a master and a slave, the love master and love slave. No love is thought to be deeper or more complete. No love is thought to be stronger or more intense. Yet such love is said to be extremely rare.
1. Considering that the books explicitly state thnat true love slaves are rare, why is it that so many of the slaves on-line THINK they are love slaves?
2. How does a Master keep His slave under "perfect discipline" so as not to appear weak?
3. Have any of the slaves here ever performed a Hate or Rebellion dance? Could you? If you are s love slave, COULD you perform a dance expressing hate/rebellion?
4. If you were a perfect love slave, how would you deal with the jealousy of other slaves on your chain? (and yes, even if He has a love slave, any Master may for various reasons choose to have other girls on HIs chain).
5. If you are part of a chain, and your Master does have one of the other girls as His love slave, what do you do? How do you handle it?
Love Slaves
"Ute had informed me, though I had been aware of such things before, even on Earth, that the most desirable women are not always those of incredible beauty. Desirability is a function of many factors, many of them subtle. Goreans believe, or many of them do, that each woman carries a slave within themselves, but that the slave in some is more desperate for her release than in others. It is said that some slavers, standing before a captured, stripped free woman, can make this determination. They take her by the arms and command her to look into their eyes; then, if she is ready, so soon, in her eyes, frightened and tear-filled, they can see the slave longing for her collar, begging for it. In any event, it is obvious that some of the most desirable of slaves, loving, needful and devoted, helplessly responsive to a master's least touch, are not those who might be chosen for the purposes of display, perhaps in a pleasure garden or on a silver neckchain bolted to a palanquin. Many an angry young man of modest means returns, disappointed and frustrated, from the market, leading home on his tether the most that he can afford, an item of what he takes to be second-rate merchandise; but he discovers, perhaps after introducing her to the house, and tying her and giving her the customary ceremonial beating that she may know herself slave there, something surprising; released, she crawls to his feet and covers them, and his legs, with kisses, and then, holding his legs timidly, she looks up into his eyes, her own tear-filled; and, startled, he sees suddenly at his feet something priceless, that fortune is his, that in the lotteries of the market he has been unaccountably victorious; at his feet there kneels a slave of slaves, one who may become to him, in time, even a love slave." (Page 101-02)Captive of Gor "On Gor they are rescued from the political and sexual deserts of Earth; branded, collared, dressed revealingly, they find themselves for the first time in their lives, though embonded, far more free than they could ever have believed possible on Earth; gone is the ennui, the vacuity; on Gor they find themselves real, prized and meaningful; on Gor they find themselves, for the first time in their lives, totally alive. Soon, most desire with all their being, in joy and gratitude, to make their masters happy. It is no wonder they are popular as slaves, and that some bring high prices. They soon find a fulfillment in love and service, and submission, which they would never have believed possible on Earth. Their place in society, as slave, is understood, accepted, and approved, even celebrated. They are prized, and relished. They become radiant, and zealous, and passionate, hot, devoted and dutiful. They set themselves to win the love of their master, and not unoften they succeed. Many then become the love slaves of love masters. They are kept as slaves, of course, for they are slaves; too, of course, as slaves, they are kept under perfect discipline. She, as other slaves, would not want it any other way. How could she, or any other slave, respect a master too weak to enforce discipline, too weak to get the whole slave from her? They are radiant. They are joyous in their collars."
(Page 339)
"To be sure, not all slaves are love slaves."
(Page 339)Tribesmen of Gor (cont)
Lita, Physician 19:56:12 pm CDT
In many contexts, Qazir. The books also speak of slaves wishing to be raped, and serving larma fruit as a way of asking strtictly at the will of the Man, and in whatever way HE chooses, regardless of what the girl might wish.
Tanthio§ 20:00:30 pm CDT
*Blinks*
fidget {GS} ~t 20:00:56 pm CDT
fidget's never seen a love slave or a dance of rebellion
Qazir 20:02:16 pm CDT
I would love to have a love slave but I rarely see them but also it is possible for a master to be deeply in love with a slave that is not a love slave to him as well a Jarl can have a love slave but he does not share her level of love
shimmer{GS} 20:02:21 pm CDT
girl loved her old Master we were very good together a lot of the time.. he ran his chain well.. but even then girl never thought of herself as his love slave... she knew he could and would sell her at a moments notice... and until close to the end girl had never thought that but he proved girl wrong..when he sent her away..
lilith {GS} 20:03:13 pm CDT
the girl has never heard of the rebellion dance....
shimmer{GS} 20:04:27 pm CDT
girl had never heard of the rebellion dance but well it sounds fun will have to try it when she gets a personal Master again.
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:05:24 pm CDT
~tongue firmly in her cheek~
flicka is a love slave, her Jarl says she is, as to a dance of rebellion, does stamping her foot and throwing a hissy fit when Jarl Keeper won't take out the garbage count as a dance of rebellion?
Qazir 20:05:57 pm CDT
yes flicka it does in my book
Lita, Physician 20:06:05 pm CDT
As the quote from Ubar Luther said, these dances aren't very well described in the books, but they did exist. They were sort of story dances, describing a slave's hate or rebellion at being enslaved, then ending with their total submission to their collar.
Dak 20:06:08 pm CDT
few Masters will admit their love/fondness for a slave for fear it will make them weak in the eyes of other Free and often f the feel to strongly will dispose of the slave !
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:06:45 pm CDT
~chuckling at Jarl Qazir's answer~
Jarl You have experience of such?
fidget {GS} ~t 20:07:12 pm CDT
Master Dak ~ fidget has read something like that ~ about disposing of a slave a Master feels too much for
Lita, Physician 20:07:22 pm CDT
*laughs* Yes, flicka, I'd say it does. And it was your Jarl's statement that you are His love slave that made Me think of it as a topic.
Bretval, Merchant 20:07:41 pm CDT
technically any dance in which a slave resists her place as a slave could be considered a dance of rebellion
Lita, Physician 20:08:21 pm CDT
exactly, Bretval
Qazir 20:08:59 pm CDT
hmph love is no sign of weakness... if his love rules his life than he is lacking good judgement put that is different
Kazar~infamous pirate 20:09:11 pm CDT
The institution of female slavery on Gor is doubtless thousands of years old; accordingly it is natural that there should be great complexity and refinement in such a delicious art form as slave dance. There are even, it might be mentioned, hate dances and rebellion dances, but most dances, as might be expected, are display dances, or need dances, or love and submission dances; even the hate and rebellion dances, of course, conclude, inevitably, with the ultimate surrender of the girl to her master as a love slave. Fighting Slave of Gor - 288
Dak 20:09:40 pm CDT
aye, several of the books, I believe Captive and Slave Girl, both had instances of that !
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:10:13 pm CDT
Hmmm Mistress, He would feel that it was no lessening of His strength to declare so. In flicka's eyes anyway, it would be a very insecure, read, weak Master Who is so fearful of the reality of His Mastery, that He would be afraid to love a slave.
Lita, Physician 20:10:36 pm CDT
Qazir, You haved a point,but again, Goreans often had a slightly different view of things than We of earth do.
shimmer{GS} 20:10:53 pm CDT
girls whip dance then kind of does a dance of rebellion.
Qazir 20:11:21 pm CDT
Aye have seen many dances of rebellion in real life young people seem really good at it
Lita, Physician 20:12:25 pm CDT
*laughs8 You have that right, Qazir!
shimmer{GS} 20:14:22 pm CDT
girl thinks it was slave girl the Master left the girl in a peasant village to work because he thought his love for her made him weak... left her for months and she was traded and sold and found herself on an auction block where the original Master bought her back..
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:14:55 pm CDT
Jarl Qazir, they also practise the "lip curl" and the "from what rock did you crawl out from under look" And that can last until the mid 20s according to new data.
Bretval, Merchant 20:20:31 pm CDT
I wonder if these girls would not attract those guys if they were not as good as they think they are... they are attracting exactly the kind of course they are worth
Bretval, Merchant 20:22:02 pm CDT
Hmmm... type to stop trying to write anything eligible
Qazir 20:22:51 pm CDT
I feel bad for any master fears his hearts desire as a weakness whats the point of being free if you cant be
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:23:27 pm CDT
~low laugh~ Master Bretval, a girl thinks she understood Your post.
Tanthio§ 20:23:44 pm CDT
Just as on urth, I'm sure there is one that will affect One greater then another, therefore "love slave" as I have always seen it.
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:24:05 pm CDT
~nods to Master Qazir~ exactly what flicka was trying to say in her convoluted way.
lilith {GS} 20:25:12 pm CDT
*agrees with Master Qazir*
Dak 20:26:41 pm CDT
f a Master could be lured into a trap becuz of His feelings for a slave would that not be a problem ?
karma [Q] ~ süß küsse~ 20:27:52 pm CDT
Master Dak it works both ways...girls are often lured to a Master and our feelings get tangled too
Dak 20:28:31 pm CDT
but slaves are noting on Gor , karma
Dak 20:29:26 pm CDT
in Captive it was almost the case!
Qazir 20:29:45 pm CDT
Dak anyone can be prey to a trap... but if a master is lured by his own lusts that has little to do with love...
karma [Q] ~ süß küsse~ 20:30:02 pm CDT
smiles...nothing?....gor could not exist without slaves...we may not have any rights and such...but we are worth something
Bretval, Merchant 20:30:31 pm CDT
Understand Gor... slave girls are nothing but beasts, to love a beast is to lower Yourself to the level of a beast... a Master is higher than that so to love as slave girl is unthinkable
I do not agree but that is one way to think of it
Lita, Physician 20:31:00 pm CDT
Dak, if it were known He had a love slave, it would certainly be an easy way for His enemies to entrap Him, lure Him Them to ransom or re-capture her, and they would have an easy way to get at Him.
Lita, Physician 20:32:15 pm CDT
karma, by the books only about 3 per cent of the population of Gor were slaves. And it is stated in the books that a slave was only worth the two coppers her dead body would bring.
Qazir 20:33:42 pm CDT
Are we not creations of one that loves us who is greater.... I am Free I can love who and what I choose. Love is a choice I can make and act on as I see fit
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:34:40 pm CDT
Mistress Lita, we are not in the books, we are in an online chat room, flicka would venture to postulate that Gorean Shores would cease to exist if only 3% of the members were slaves.
Bretval, Merchant 20:35:45 pm CDT
Considering the cost some bring in the books, that is one of the stupidest things he stated, Lita
Qazir 20:36:08 pm CDT
3% that is why I kill so many Free men because with so few slaves I got to do something to improve my odds of getting served and furred
karma [Q] ~ süß küsse~ 20:36:24 pm CDT
wow only 3 %...shakes her head. in total confusion
karma [Q] ~ süß küsse~ 20:37:22 pm CDT
amen flicka
fidget {GS} ~t 20:37:51 pm CDT
~does some quick math and realizes there's 40 something percent slaves in this room right now~
Bretval, Merchant 20:38:49 pm CDT
and apparently 1% seemed to be from Earth *LOL*
Dak 20:38:52 pm CDT
well, it is a fact, that online, slaves are a little more important to the Roleplay !
karma [Q] ~ süß küsse~ 20:38:54 pm CDT
looks to fidget...smiling...then GS is saved!
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:39:29 pm CDT
~gazes in amazement at the wondrous fidget, whispers~ fidgy will you come and please help flicka balance Jarl Keeper's books?
Lita, Physician 20:39:56 pm CDT
karma, by the books only about 3 per cent of the population of Gor were slaves. And it is stated in the books that a slave was only worth the two coppers her dead body would bring.
Qazir 20:40:01 pm CDT
very true points girls ... if gs had fewer slaves you would not see my sorry Jarl ass here very often LOL
OriginalSandman_Builder/ Sr. Captain of GS 20:41:09 pm CDT
smiling many of us are happy that there are more than 3% online slaves in Gor
Lita, Physician 20:42:08 pm CDT
karma, think of it like an expensive car. You can pay a lot of money for a Lamborghini, but if you total it in an accident, it is worth nothing, sometimes not even scrap price. However, if you have insurance or lots of money, you can go down the street and buy another one exactly like it. Same with slaves.
Dak 20:42:57 pm CDT
just becuz there are more becuz of the Tavern environment, does not mean their percentages are higher elsewhere , *smiles*
karma [Q] ~ süß küsse~ 20:43:41 pm CDT
Mistress...karma's not disputing the books or Your knowledge, it just seems strange. karma knows that not every Master had a slave, but ethe ones who did had a large number of them...and when you read about the koraba slave pens from captive there were many slaves to be bought and sold
Bretval, Merchant 20:44:33 pm CDT
hmmm... given the way the Free Women are thought of.... one wonders where children come from
karma [Q] ~ süß küsse~ 20:44:39 pm CDT
nods
Qazir 20:45:22 pm CDT
I believe it was a miss print it could have been ment to print ...only 3% were love slaves or 39% were slaves... but hey once in print the profit margin might have only been 3% to do a recall and reprint so the publisher said forget it they can argue about this in a forum many years from now but today we get paid
Tanthio§ 20:45:51 pm CDT
*takes note to explain to Bretval about the birds and the bees*
Lita, Physician 20:46:00 pm CDT
You are correct flicka, in that we are not in the books. However, We are supposedly ROLEPLAYING the world described in those books, and therefore should role-play as close to them as possible, should We not? Just as when ONe decides to roleplay a Shakespearean Drama, one sticks as close as possible to the "world" He describes in His plays, and does not alter dialogue, costumes, etc. just because One wishes something were different.
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:46:16 pm CDT
~bursts out laughing in real time at Jarl Qazir's hypothesis.~
snowrose{JTr}~GS~fg 20:47:27 pm CDT
3% sounds unrealistic when you read the books. JN wasn't that keen on realistic in many ways. Thinks of the mines, the fields..Not all were house slaves
fidget {GS} ~t 20:47:38 pm CDT
Master Bretval ~ fidget has also read that Free Woman were often looked very highly upon ~ as they are the only ones that can breed and give offspring
Lita, Physician 20:48:07 pm CDT
And it certainly is by the books that there were more slaves present in a Tavern than one might find in, say, a Peasant's Hut.
Bretval, Merchant 20:48:57 pm CDT
Tell that to fans of West Side story, Lita
shimmer{GS} 20:49:02 pm CDT
Free Women were the breeders grins softly...
Dak 20:49:15 pm CDT
Free Companionship on Gor is not often thought of as a love relationship !
Lita, Physician 20:50:51 pm CDT
Bretval, West Side story took the basic plot of Shakespeare's play and brought it into a complete modern setting. They were not attempting to re-create Shakespeare's work, just stole His plot! *chuckle* One way to avoid charges of plagiarism,. or paying copyright fees! *snicker*
Bretval, Merchant 20:51:15 pm CDT
I guess you are right Tanthios..,. Free Women get laid because there are no slave girls about to distract the Men
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:51:17 pm CDT
Not necessarily Mistress, one of the best versions of Shakespeare's Richard III was set in Modern Times, with American accents. It was made in 1995.
Qazir 20:51:28 pm CDT
Ok has the topic changed to how can I shag a free woman and get away with it?
Bretval, Merchant 20:52:45 pm CDT
*LOL* True enough Lita
Lita, Physician 20:52:48 pm CDT
No it wasn't, Dak. Companionships were arranged, to provide heirs and other financial benefits to the families. Nobody cared whether the couples loved, or even liked each other. And, They could allow the Companionship to lapse after a year if They so desired.
shimmer{GS} 20:52:48 pm CDT
you would have to be her Free companion Jarl Qazir laughs
Tanthio§ 20:53:18 pm CDT
Take Her as Your Compainion
Qazir 20:53:52 pm CDT
in the writings of tina turner "whats love got to do with it"?
Lita, Physician 20:54:40 pm CDT
Again, flicka, that was done for a reason, and they did not even attempt to re-produce Shakespear's play, Just the plot.
Qazir 20:55:09 pm CDT
Lita would it cost me more in medicare to be free companions with you ?
shimmer{GS} 20:55:23 pm CDT
girl likes the idea of changing it to 39% seems more realistic... and well we all know Norton was known for his typos...
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:56:42 pm CDT
Actually the plot of Romeo and Juliet goes back to antiquity, Shakespeare is thought to have based it on Chaucer's Troilus and Criseyde, who in turn is thought to have "stolen" it from the ancient Greek tadgetician Euripides.
Lita, Physician 20:57:12 pm CDT
Probably, Qazir. And then nYou'd have to live with Me and put up with Me! That might not be as much fun as You would think! *LOL* You know how mean and hateful Free Women are supposed to be to slaves? We3ll Who do You think They practiced on? *snicker8
Lita, Physician 20:57:49 pm CDT
You are correct, flicka
flicka-slave of Keeper 20:58:39 pm CDT
no no Mistress, with respect You are wrong. It is word for word Shakespeare's play of Richard III but set in Modern Times.
snowrose{JTr}~GS~fg 20:58:56 pm CDT
snowrose has read that Shakespeare did exactly that Mistress...stole all of plots, mostly from Italian stores, and just improved them and made them modern to his times
Lita, Physician 20:59:21 pm CDT
exactly, snowrose.
Qazir 21:00:50 pm CDT
If it gets to painful I will just spend more time at sea or on my Tarn
Bretval, Merchant 21:01:21 pm CDT
I think Wwe are straying from the topic *L*
snowrose{JTr}~GS~fg 21:01:35 pm CDT
so West Side Story and 10 Things I HATE ABOUT YoU did the same thing that he did.
Qazir 21:01:39 pm CDT
ok so are we saying not many writers had an original thought ?
Lita, Physician 21:01:41 pm CDT
I hadn't seen it, flicka, though I have heard of it. I find it hard to imagine Shakesperean language in modern costume and accents! *chuckle* Thqt would be a real challenge to an actor !
flicka-slave of Keeper 21:02:31 pm CDT
~nodding~ Shakespeare is a good example of taking a "plot" and roleplaying it into something else, just as we can take the plot of Gor and role play it into Gorean Shores.
snowrose{JTr}~GS~fg 21:02:40 pm CDT
yes Master Qazir...they say that there are really just 7 basic plots
Lita, Physician 21:03:10 pm CDT
Qazir, some philosopher or other is supposed to have said that nothing is new on earth, everything has been thought of at one time or another.
Dak 21:03:39 pm CDT
it's 9PM, does any wish to continue longer ?
Qazir 21:04:23 pm CDT
I vote we close and go to the tavern and fur west side story style
Qazir 21:04:48 pm CDT
and follow basic plot 3
flicka-slave of Keeper 21:05:08 pm CDT
~eyes sparkling in devilment~ oh Jarl Qazir necrophilia?
snowrose{JTr}~GS~fg 21:05:48 pm CDT
But the man would have to be the One to die Master...~pouts~ girl don't wanna
Lita, Physician 21:06:24 pm CDT
But flicka, when we do those things with Shakespeare's plots, we are not even pretending to re-create Shakespeare's plays exactly. We are intentionally departing from them, using them as a base to work from. In role-playing Gor on-line, we are supposedly trying to re-create the world John Norman created as closely as possible, just as in a "normal" Shakespearean production. We try to re-create costumes, settings, and movements as closely as We possibly can to the way they would have been done when He wrote them.
Qazir 21:07:22 pm CDT
since you brought that up I figure if I played my marketing right I could get more for a slave girls dead body than 2 copper
Dak 21:08:02 pm CDT
ok, I will call the Forum to a close, thanks to all that came and participated,*smiles* thanks flicka for scribing
Tanthio§ 21:08:42 pm CDT
Thank you Dak for the Lead and flicka for scribing
snowrose{JTr}~GS~fg 21:08:57 pm CDT
Thank You for leading Master Dak
thank you for scribing flicka
Bretval, Merchant 21:09:15 pm CDT
should we invite Mercutio?
OriginalSandman_Builder/ Sr. Captain of GS 21:09:30 pm CDT
Thank you for running forum Dak
thank you for scribing flicka,, rising tis time to find my holdings I wish all here well
shimmer{GS} 21:09:44 pm CDT
thank you for leading Master Dak thank your for scribing flicka
lilith {GS} 21:10:26 pm CDT
thank You for leading Master Dak
thank you for scribing flicka
flicka-slave of Keeper 21:10:29 pm CDT
Exactly Mistress, and that is flicka's point, we are not performing a play in Gorean Shores, we are roleplaying based on a series of books which are full of contradictions and unlikely situations. Therefore we do not need to slavishly follow word for word what is or is not in the books, as we would have to do if we were performing a Shakespeare play.
Part of the differentiation is that one is a play. And has dialogue which should be followed. If one doesn't follow it, then one is doing an adaptation as is the case with West Side Story, but not with the production of Richard III that flicka mentioned.
Bretval, Merchant 21:11:46 pm CDT
Thanks Dak for leading and flicka for scribing
flicka-slave of Keeper 21:13:35 pm CDT
Thank You Master Dak for leading